Path: ultra.sonic.net!news From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Carny and Conmen vs Prophets and Politicians (was [CoS FAQ]...) Followup-To: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi Date: 8 Jan 1999 11:50:35 -0800 Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 130 Message-ID: <775nib$qt6@bolt.sonic.net> References: <773q6b$1r3@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bolt.sonic.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.satanism:104756 alt.magick.tyagi:15148 talk.politics.misc:848080 talk.politics.libertarian:345685 49990108 IIIom Hail Satan! (followups set appropriately) "Chris Casper" : # You mean Cos or laveyans have people asking questions.... of course. the CoSatanists are an authoritative source on the subject of Satanism (their type). they have high visibility and persistent participation in Satanist communication media. it is natural that people will go to the Church to get info on Satanism and unfortunately common for organizations like them to put out a somewhat biased FAQ which explains a perspective (their own) on the subject. given that LaVey is the world's most visible Satanist (however seriously he is taken) and that the CoS spearheaded the social culture of Satanism from its earliest days (did you forget all the hooplah in the late 70s and early 80s with LaVey in the media?), given the wide distribution of _The Satanic Bible_, by LaVey, why would you expect it to be any different? it sounds to me like you're merely an anti-CoSatanist, a very limited and polarized approach. # I thought you all were just misfits of a con artist, but # now I am to understand you have a FAQ to fall back on.... # My the con artist (lavey) really must have determined # that someone out there would take him serious and ask # questions. this is supposed to be a CRITICISM? HAHA! you've missed the point as much as have those who have been conned, Chris! the fact that the social bugaboo of "satanism" fostered by French occultists of the turn of the century and believed by Roman Catholics and other Christians enough to propagandize against it (eventually turning it into a big witch-hunt scare for $-moneymaking) could be turned into a legitimized "religion" (described and accepted by the US armed forces in its handbooks on religion; described by texts on the sociology of religion in academic circles, studied by journalists and hype-sales-hack writers who want to help the popularity) by LaVey and the Church of Satan (partially provided emphasis by the CoS-spinoff, the ToS, led by former CoS member Michael Aquino whose subsequent work deserves to stand on its own merit) is a testimony to the POWER of the message fomented by these folks and its character. I have always said that LaVey seems very much like a carny to me, but I have not said this intending it to be taken as a serious CRITICISM of the man. the ability to steer the nuveaureligious herd toward self-deterministic, atheistic, and anti-religious, existential directions is of great VALUE to the human species. many great con artists of the world are ADMIRED and RESPECTED despite any social censure they may draw based on their antinomianism. # Get a fuckin Life People..Lavey was just a con man out # to line his pockets... but how did he do it? while saying "WHO GAINS?" that is, he was like the modern stage magician who says "this is a very old trick, and I'm going to show you how it is done, and I am very happy to have you here so that I can fool you in other, more subtle ways. by the way, if you want to be a magician too, these are tricks you can practice for your friends and family." not only this, but he is being religio-political in his presentation, indicating the weaknesses of the establishment and its religious culture, pointing out the value of what has come to fruition from the materialistic paradigm(s?) of modern Euro-American societies. of course he embraces these things, does not call them by their correct names, and identifies them with "Satanism" (in effect saying 'you are all Satanists, welcome to my club, stop deceiving yourselves into thinking that you are 'religious'), and compliments them as worthy and pleasing results. if he was out to line his pockets did he succeed? how did you ascertain that this was his goal? how can you gauge his success? how can you be sure he wasn't after something more long-term or important? # He is DEAD thank you.....What are you all trying to do # with web sites commemorated to him, make him into Elvis # or maybe a fuckin xtain....He died...get over it his presentation appears to have impacted enough people in positive ways that they are mourning his death and want to remember him fondly in public ways. if he was a con man as you and I have indicated (I never met him, didn't spend any time with him from which I might make this assessment more responsibly, did you?), then he appears to have achieved at least a modicum of success in this regard. if this is the case, doesn't this deserve to be admitted? how close was what he said to revolutionary religion of other sorts, inclusive of Christianity? that he categorized "Christianity" in a very simplistic fashion appears to be lost on the greater number of Satanists who were either inculcated with idiocy masquerading as Christian or who have seized upon LaVey's text as gospel and a known even though they may wish to separate themselves from him by virtue of criticizing him (weakly). # Lavey was just a con artist... what should we do in response to con artists? are any of them beneficial to human history? what are the limitations that con artists face in affecting the development of individuals and social movements? when should the term 'just' be prepended to 'a con artist' and does this circumstance and the man (LaVey) qualify? # Hail Satan # Hail Lucifer what, you're worshipping a cross-dressed Venus now? blessed beast! nocTifer -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (emailed replies may be posted); cc me replies; http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html