Path: Supernews70!Supernews73!supernews.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-feed1.tiac.net!posterchild2!hollyfeld.org!zazas-l-owner From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan Subject: (Z) Satanism (fwd) Date: 27 Apr 1998 17:03:45 -0400 Organization: Hollyfeld Information Systems Lines: 276 Sender: mail@www.hollyfeld.org Approved: alt-satanism,alt-magick-tyagi,talk-religion-misc,alt-pagan@hollyfeld.org Message-ID: <199804272058.NAA20098@shell.accesscom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dns.hollyfeld.org Xref: Supernews70 alt.satanism:91586 alt.magick.tyagi:15644 talk.religion.misc:360725 alt.pagan:260423 orig-to: darkpaths-l elist - - - - - - - - - - - - 49980420 aa2 Hail Satan! Kerry Delf : # Apologies for abominably belated reply.... welcome back to the cutting board. I desire to post this public forums and would appreciate your advice on the matter in private reply, thanks. # Nor was LaVey in any position to define what Satanism is and who is # and is not a real Satanist.... are there such positions? # ...LaVey COULD, of course, define who and what was real *LaVeyan* # Satanism.... what a paltry definition, however! much more egotistical (hence Satanic?) to exclaim that one's own is the entirety! this way the herd begins to follow and some wake to their own Satanism in any case. # the ignorant belief that Satanism *is* cat-eviscerating, # baby-raping devil worship.... ah but *satanism* (the projection of dualist repressives) *is* this. and this is off of which Satanism has played for ages. # ...often merely exchange one uninformed absolute for another. are you not in kind describing an absolute here also? # ...naively take as whole truth the description of LaVeyan Satanism. yes, it is a kind of chomping at the bit to be led. if they do such, why not accommodate and put out the feed? # These are the folks you'll run into who say, "Satanism has # *nothing to do with* devil worship or theism or any of that. # Satanism is just about worshiping yourself, and being an # individualist, and stuff." have you never said this yourself? # Certainly that is one facet of Satanism, but what an astonishing # number of people fail to recognize is that "Satanism" is an # umbrella term, as is "Paganism," covering a fairly wide variety # of beliefs and practices. you say "that is one facet of Satanism", so you must understand what these people mean by it. please explain what "worshiping yourself" includes. what qualities and characteristics are suggested and/or would you suggest be included under the catch- all category of "individualism" within Satanic parameters? # > But naturally there is an innate contradiction in the term "Satanic # > organization", as you would probably agree. I have claimed this many times, but I seldom heard people describe to me the justification for the contrary argument. I had one in mind at the time but refuse now to emit it, instead asking further of Ms. Delf below. # ...there is difficulty with implementing such a concept, what is the difficulty, precisely? just form a collective and membership roster, ask a batch of Satanists to join, and zaZAS! instant Satanic organization! # I don't find the term entirely oxymoronic. If "organization" # is used in a loose sense, the organization being a loose # connection between individuals, those of like mind (on some # points, but not on all) who have come together for mutual # benefit, such an org could remain truly Satanic in the # LaVeyan sense, while still being an organization. and in the wider, transLaVeyan sense which I have not seen you begin to define? # It is when "organization" is taken to mean a group in which # every member is expected to fit a mold that it becomes # entirely antithetical to LaVeyan Satanist thought, IMO. any Satanism which includes individualism as part of it, yes. can individualists become part of a group with restrictions or requirements for membership? where do the edges of real individualism lie? # the CoS certainly DOES seem to grant its members the "ultimate # freedom" -- yet, of course, so does non-membership. what possible freedom (esp. ultimate) could any organization, outside some protectorate and pirate state, ever grant? does not nonmembership contain more freedom in the sense of not having to concern oneself with whether one wishes to remain a member by virtue of holding to the inevitable moralistic demands? you advocate for such things yourself by your criticism of TJ and AS. are you sure that the typical equation of "choice" with "freedom" (a la de Toqueville) which has seized so many Americans is not at work here in descriptions of Satanism and their "granted freedoms"? # ...what is the POINT of joining the Church of Satan? must there be a single point? membership may bolster an individual's flagging self-concepts sufficient to warrant their social identification as Satanists (an org somehow 'legitimizing' their claim -- this may be why so many CoSatanists begin to champion and equate the smaller for the larger category). the membership card and one's support of the org may become a badge of pride, supporting an organization which stands out clearly and publically bearing the name of the Jehovan Adversary, complete with valuable deceptions that make the projections of the conventional Christian fall weakly aside as they shall gape in futile astonishment: as when the "Nine Satanic Statements", the "Eleven Rules of the Earth" (Satan is Lord of the Earth you know), and the "Ten Sins of Satanism" (Sins? in Satanism? is that anything like 'farms in Berkeley'? muuuuuuuuuuuuu!) are valiantly traipsed before the abashed and destroyed ignoramus who was only moments ago proclaiming their petty victory of their god over the powers of This World. if one is diligent and predisposed, one may also achieve networking and/or 'agent' status within the Church, thereby both having communications with the greater body and, trusted by the High Priests, licensed to go before the public eye and proclaim the Way of Satan for all to see! what more need be included for LIFETIME membership and the chance to join the legions of those opposed to the Nazarene travesty?!!! really! feh # What does the member get out of it, beyond a shiny membership card # and a sense of being part of it all? what do most clubs or groups provide beyond this? crap-laden newsletters becoming less and less relevant to the course of the individual's lifeworks, piling up in the corner as a testimony to how the monies of the organization are wasted, squandered? in a Christian culture isn't it enough to align oneself to the enemies of one's parents to demonstrate once and for all that THIS, this disgusting filth foisted upon us from insipid ancestors with the arrogance to call it "truth" and "sacredness" is completely and utterly worthy of being put down as corrupt? # ...folks like T.J./Tani Jantsang have the freedom to write # what they will, and it's a damned good thing they do (the # First Amendment and all that, y'know). this is nothing about some silly "First Amendment" (as you demonstrate your ignorance thereof)! what if the blessed TJ writes that she is somehow an authority beyond Priestessness, claims to be bequeathing the Holy of Holies for Sat-tanitude, fresh from the bowels of the Church of Satan Herself? you can bet your sweet bippy that no quicker than a fly lays eggs on a cadaver she'd be warned and, if despondent, dropped from the membership rosters like so much bad breakfast! no, instead she says what is "Satanism", even speaking 'as a Priestess of the Church', and foments a greater and greater confusion of matters than has ever before existed (the Father of Lies smiles). # And within an organization structured like the CoS, I tend to # agree that *members* still have that freedom of expression # without censure from the Church administration. to say what, precisely? what "Satanism" is or is historically (heh) supposed to be? what will the Church do about it when it inspires the very same travesty of history in its harangue of Christianity (another Bogey) as a suit of armor fallaciously understood? do you really think that LaVey's claim that Satanism is "inverted Christianity" has any accuracy whatever? no, freedom to write things is not a boon which should be lauded of the CoS (though in its ignorance the admin could begin an intended attempt to achieve conformity). instead talk about the real benefits attendant socially interior and external to the membership. # I *do* have a problem with the fact that Jantsang is not a # *member*, she is a *magistra*. The woman is not only a # raving lunatic, she's a raving lunatic who has engaged in # unacceptable behaviour from death threats to online attempts # to cause attacks on those who disagree with her to real-life # harrassment. where does this "acceptableness" come from? why need a death- threat concern anyone but she and the person whom she callostrates and prompts to legal action? is this not more soap opera bubbles cast about to gain attention? why in the least take it seriously? do you still watch television? # And your organization has put this woman in a prominent # position, a position of power?!? *That* I cannot condone. and what position brings you either to condone or to approve such an appointment? I've got long missives from Ms. Jantsang and have sang her praises as well as rejected her assertions in public forums. as I understand it from both her and from others either formerly within the organization, the titles really mean very little in comparison to how integral one may be within the structure itself. this is often true within nonprofit and membership organizations (social clubs). the titles quickly become honorary should the individual be deemed subject to hysteria or dipsomania, and they can be extracted or excommunicated by virtue of their ridiculous demands or acts. # ...The actions and writings of Andre Schlesinger # and Tani Jantsang *in their capacity as priest and magistra of # the CoS* have been the final straw in my waning esteem for the # Church of Satan; I now generally consider it to be a joke, a # shell of an organization (despite certain quality individuals # within the Church), largely due to the evidence of these two # ignorami. you assess the soundness of an organizational structure based on expressions of two of its members to the public? odd. you would perhaps prefer an uniformity of expression from the orgnization which is supposed to profess and support individualism??! # ...The problem is that they conduct themselves horrendously, # all the while reminding people that they are official # representatives of the CoS, and that they are acting in that # capacity. They are embarrassments to the Church. butt wait! embarrassment, sardonicry, irritation, satire, and raucously offensive expression is the BASTION of Satanism, is it not? what better exemplars of rubbing the literati's face in Proper Behavior than the clowns who, especially while operating in the behalf of Hir Infernal Majesty (even while claiming that SHe doesnt' exist!), defy social custom and betray a total repudiation of decorum?? # And *that* is a failing of the way the Church has been run in # recent years. my understanding (and I hope to be corrected by CoSatanists who know better) is that titles are ideally not distributed as rewards for not doing bad things, but instead are awards for achievement in the world (what ToSsers have called 'selling priesthood', by the dollar no doubt :>). if Ms. Jantsang or Mr. Schlesinger are for some reason of this category, then it is news to me, and THIS should be the criteria by which the administration of this CoSatanist organization (you wait, there will be fractures and offshoots yet! ;>) should be judged. how well does it do what it says it will do, after all? of course Sammy Davis Jr. and Marilyn Manson may be examples of confirmations in this regard.... blessed beast! ________________________________________________________________________ nocTifer: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com --- http://www.abyss.com/tokus TOKUS-COE Office: 408/2-666-SLUG --- Emergency Contraception:18005849911 ____________...oooOOO---zazas-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________ To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe" to zazas-l-request@hollyfeld.org To unsubscribe your@email.com send "unsubscribe your@email.com" To subscribe send "subscribe" to zazas-l-request@hollyfeld.org http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven