Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!news1.best.com!news.net99.net!ratty.wolfe.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!das-news2.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!cmcl2!PORT-013.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU!jjc4162 From: jjc4162@is.nyu.edu (Jack Collins) Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism Subject: Re: Satanism and Neopaganism (Was Re: Encarta Entry...) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 02:13:52 Eastern Organization: New York University Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <3jvtkj$cvn@crl.crl.com> <3m1erb$dpv@jobe.shell.portal.com> <1995Apr6.155723@titan.sfasu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-013.dial.net.nyu.edu X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] Xref: shell.portal.com alt.religion.wicca:2150 alt.satanism:17032 In article <1995Apr6.155723@titan.sfasu.edu> z_coolidgejs@titan.sfasu.edu writes: >Subject: Re: Satanism and Neopaganism (Was Re: Encarta Entry...) >From: z_coolidgejs@titan.sfasu.edu >Date: 6 Apr 95 15:57:23 CST >In article , tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Lorax/TOKUS) writes: >> Kali Yuga 49950406 >> ...I tend to associate Satan with >> 'the world' and NATURE, which was the Enemy for many Christians, >> along with the FLESH and the DEVIL. I.e. the flesh and nature are >> merely aspects of the same energy/entity. > I will grant it that until recently, Christianity has feared nature. (It >shows in all the literature.) But, "Satan" was the Christian embodiment of >evil. The reason he (He? Eh? Hur? Huh?) seems to resemble a diety of nature >is that the early Christian Romans saw early Pagans in the north worshipping >Pagan dieties, and decided erroneously that they were devil worshippers. > Does it not seem odd that a popular image of the devil is a humanoid with >goat legs? That, my friends, is Pan and the satyrs. Hardly the embodiment of >evil to me. (Though, granted, certain Puritan groups considered enjoying and >frollicking evil. Well, OK, a lot cared little for a lot of sex. But still, >Pan is NOT Satan.) As for the horns, that's Cernunos. Maybe Wicca is recent, >but Cernunos dates back long before Christianity, and thus before Satanism. Nope, the origin of Satan=goat goes back at least as far as the third century BCE, to 1 Enoch, where the leader of the rebellious angels who mate with humans and spawn the Nephilim, called Asa'el, is portrayed as an anthropoid goat. As more dualistic influences worked into the Judeo-Christian mythology, Aza'el became identified with Beliel, the leader of the unholy army, and eventually as Satan himself. He is also the source of the scapegoat, Azazel, of the Jewish holiday of Purim. Lots of gods had horns, BTW. Curnanos does not seem to have even been that imprortant in Celtic mytholgy, from my reading. Blackjack (who really ought to finish his paper on 1 enoch while he remembers all of this) -- ============== The Rev. Dr. Capt. J.J. "Blackjack" Collins // ============== /////////// ====== ====== Gentleman Pyrate // // ============== // // ============== jjc4162@is.nyu.edu // // ====== ====== // \\/ Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!das-news2.harvard.edu!oitnews.harvard.edu!cmcl2!PORT-026.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU!jjc4162 From: jjc4162@is.nyu.edu (Jack Collins) Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism Subject: Re: Satanism and Neopaganism (Was Re: Encarta Entry...) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 20:54:36 Eastern Organization: New York University Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3jvtkj$cvn@crl.crl.com> <3m1erb$dpv@jobe.shell.portal.com> <1995Apr6.155723@titan.sfasu.edu> <3m9ekr$9qk@jobe.shell.portal.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-026.dial.net.nyu.edu X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] Xref: shell.portal.com alt.religion.wicca:2276 alt.satanism:17156 In article <3m9ekr$9qk@jobe.shell.portal.com> tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Lorax/TOKUS) writes: >From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Lorax/TOKUS) >Subject: Re: Satanism and Neopaganism (Was Re: Encarta Entry...) >Date: 9 Apr 1995 13:04:43 -0700 >Kali Yuga 49950409 >z_coolidgejs@titan.sfasu.edu quotes me and writes: >|Does it not seem odd that a popular image of the devil is a humanoid with >|goat legs? That, my friends, is Pan and the satyrs. >My guess is that it has less to do with just Pan here, though I do agree >that this may have been some of the inspiration. Cf. 'scapegoat'. "Azazel," the scapegoat in Judaism, is a form of "'Asa'el," the goat-shaped angel that taught humans the arts of war and metalurgy, and was punished by YHVH for it, according to 1 Enoch, which dates back at least to 400 BCE, and is the source of Genesis 6, the bit about the angels fathering giants and all. This is my candidate for the origin of the goat-form satan. See Hanson, "Rebellion in Heaven," Journal of Biblical Literature 96/2. Blackjack -- ============== The Rev. Dr. Capt. J.J. "Blackjack" Collins // ============== /////////// ====== ====== Gentleman Pyrate // // ============== // // ============== jjc4162@is.nyu.edu // // ====== ====== // \\/