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Newsgroups: alt.zen,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.philosophy.zen
Subject: Re: The Tao does not exist.
Date: 6 May 1996 17:06:50 -0700
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|Can this warm and informative <!> be the same <!> who wrote 
|those earlier, sillier things? 

many buddhists say that '!' is merely a label for a shifting wave
 of energy we learn to call 'self' in our childhood after the 
 development of the mature organism and isolated consciousness
 (cf 'atman')

|>|>|>|...if the Tao that can be named is <not> the true Tao, [Lao Tzu] 
|>|>|>|then what are you ...Taoists calling Tao? 

|>|>we taoists are calling tao that which is the Mother of the
|>|> 10,000 things, the Named Tao of Antiquity and the Queen of
|>|>  Heaven;  Progenitrix of All Manifested Forms and Planes

|>...first the tao without name, then the tao with name, 
|>then the intertwining fishes, and then the blossoming of the 
|>5 elements (this is my present favorite system of metaphor)

|>in the sense you may mean it (beyond mere quip), 'tao' is used
|>historically in many different ways, including reference to
|>'road' 'way' 'saying' 'speaking' 'Way' (in a universal sense),
|>'Reason', 'Logos', 'God' and many ways more imaginative

|in any 'way' which takes your fancy?  

not at all.  some ways (using it, for excessive profit, for example) 
 are right out.  others, like as a form of government, have variously
 been accepted by Taoists and Buddhists throughout Asia and beyond
 for centuries (state religion for a while in China) 

I'd think that violence would be hard-pressed to easily defend,
 and ostentatious splendour is likely only necessary on very
 unusual (celebratory) occasions so as not to infringe on needs

one way which I figure varies but one I think about often is the
 way of nature.  She is so fragile in my mind's eye, mother and
 benefactress and womb.  I would think taoists would be opposed,
 unless coerced, to supporting non-ecological principles (subversive 
 taoist rebels should take unpredictable and possibly invisible 
  - magical? - actions to effect a change toward a healthier 
 relationship with the biosphere (surely nonviolent but disturbing)
 
|>|'make' a revelation. Without veils there would be nothing to 
|>|reveal, would there? Everything would be plain to see.

|> actually the focus on revelation within religious tradition is
|>  often less about concealing from those who desire or may be
|>  ready for the experience than it is about playing over and
|>  over the BREAKTHROUGH of consciousness.  

|When do they play the consciousness which has broken through?

individually.  this is the Path of the Servant, the Thief in
 the Night, the Infiltrator and Spy and Sinner.  some need it
 in order to purge themselves of self-hatred.  save the planet, 
 kill your self, the Great Martyrdom Cult

sometimes the individuals merge together into one body as in
 the case of ecstatic reveries and glossolalia within the
 Protestant churches (Presbyterian?) ("speaking in tongues")

at others members of religions extant have revealed unto them a
 transformative and wonderous sight which they associate with
 some divine or awakened consciousness, and this or subsequent
 political association inspires them to break with previous 
 and/or surrounding tradition and start a rival faction 
 (Buddha/Dharmaics; Jesus/Hebrews; Muhammad/Hebrews+Pagans; 
  Kaysania/Fatimid Muslims; Shi'ite/12-imam Muslims
  
|> this may be a more positive framework from which to see the Western 
|>  biblical traditions, for example, as while they do perpetuate 
|>  tribalism at the expense of volition, they also have a capacity 
|>  to adjust to shifting conditions which I admire
 
|Curiously enough, it's their apparent lack of such a capacity - 
|along with the burdens, hindrances and impediments they place 
|in front of and upon their own people - that has generally led 
|me to reject them, in principle and practice.

it is an important rejection then.  for some religions function
 beautifully. for you and for others religions are an impediment.
 I used to feel similarly until I found a church which has values
 akin to my own (the Church of Euthanasia; dadariffic)

|Strange weather we've been having lately, don't you think?

listen for 5 seconds to the sounds around you.  duplicate a chaotic 
 sound specimen.  without a familiar context the individual truncates 
 more and more frequently into dissassociative consciousness.  studying 
 the course of the arational and opposing mental postulation are means 
 of backing the current of consciousness upon itself, achieving what is 
 called 'arrival'; a sense of motionlessness, peace, and profound 
 realization

the weather here is quite average for this time of year, perhaps a bit warm.
 not strange, aside perhaps from the high pollen levels