Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (xiwangmu) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.philosophy.taoism Subject: Taoism Definitions (was Masters? Sages?) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 102 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8ii9or$rvk@bolt.sonic.net> References: <%y2Y4.5200$SY5.22624@newscontent-01.sprint.ca> <8h75ef$r24$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:53:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 961325634 208.201.224.36 (Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:53:54 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:53:54 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:23747 talk.religion.misc:317740 alt.philosophy.taoism:73216 50000618 Vom aadark@my-deja.com: >...Are we Daoists if we don't worship Lao Tze or Zhuang Tze? >I like Zhuang but I don't like Lao. So, am I a Daoist? graduated assemblage ... SOCIAL card-carrying part of official Taoist Order member of Taoist religious group participant in Taoist-affiliate philosophy forum born to parents who identify as Taoists PERSONAL Immortal, god or some other Taoist Worthy child of the Mother of 10000 Sage and Master tea-drinking hermit laughing at all these categories dedicated Taoist ceremonialist, magician or priest dedicated Taoist philosopher, mystic, or alchemist aspirant to the Way do you fit in here somewhere? the last one could include lots of people. ultimately knowledge is impossible to obtain except by violence. >I don't think it is important to have other people 'recognise' me as a >Daoist... it is for social functions. >believing all the 'right' stuff. it is for social membership of some types. >I'm reading on this internet >thing just because I feel that my view are more or less synonomous with >SOME Daoist views... I like flavours. >although after being here the impression 'Daoism' >has on me as any form of homogenous institution is totally destroyed. very good! >I guess it's so hard to find people thinking on your wavelength even if >you go to such a specialised discussion. keep looking, comrade! >While I'm here, do any of you Dao men/women out there have a good >explanation of the 'transcendal' reality (the phenonemonologic) and >the 'chaotic core' reality (you know... the original state... dao)? explanation: two-reality or two-truth speculation tends to fall into discernment based on analogy to perceptual and deductive or at least logical knowledge-origination. this occurs in many philosophic systems. Indians have an illustration with a rope and a snake wherein the road-walker sees what she takes to be a snake and then discovers that it is a snake. the initial perception symbolizes the 'ordinary' or 'perception without reflection', the 'Limited Truth' of India's great logician, Nagarjuna. the later conclusion (rope not snake) symbolizes an arrival at apprehension of a deeper or more profound truth (Nagarjuna's 'Ultimate Truth'; I'm cobbling a couple of different schools together here on purpose to illustrate a general point). typically the "transcendental" reality is that which is associated with the rope apprehension, the Ultimate or realization-beyond-mere-sense-appearances. the 'chaotic core' most likely refers to a kind of emanationist Taoist cosmology whereby either one may return to an origination or to a state approximating the non-thought-circumscribed 'Way' itself. typically the process to arrive at this origination-state is either not described at all or provided an alchemical, mystical, or moral technique for reaching it. those who so arrive (in the West we might call them Adepts or Masters) are often seen as beyond ordinary experience (as with the Immortals), as hidden from the sight of the very deluded who seek to join them, or as participants within the Taoist social group (as is the case with many religious cults). I should note that I have not seen this phrase "chaotic core" before and am just guessing as to what you are asking and the proper response based upon my studies. comments welcome. mu -- mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired