Path: ultra.sonic.net!jupiter.dnai.com!uunet!in5.uu.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!noos.hooked.net!206.80.6.11.MISMATCH!its.hooked.net!not-for-mail From: heidrick@well.com (Bill Heidrick) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,alt.non.racism,alt.occult Subject: Re: Crowley and the Volkish Movement (was Re: English Qaballa ...) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 01:43:38 GMT Organization: Whole Earth Networks News Lines: 45 Message-ID: <368c2191.8682412@news.well.com> References: <199812292047.MAA02456@bolt.sonic.net> <3689628A.159A@luckymojo.com> <199812311521.HAA27593@bolt.sonic.net> <368BD226.473F@luckymojo.com> Reply-To: Bill Heidrick NNTP-Posting-Host: haiti-108.ppp.hooked.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick:130514 alt.magick.tyagi:15077 93, On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:36:03 -0800, catherine yronwode wrote: >The O. T. O. has "secret documents...whose origin is German"? Can you >substantiate this or cite a reference? What are these documents? How is >their German "origin" explained? The older rituals were written in various places, including Germany and Switzerland, particularly likely would be at Lugano. >I stand corrected: the references Richard Noll makes in "The Cult of >Jung" are to the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (of which Crowley was >a member) and not to the O. T. O. (which Crowley founded). Crowley didn't found OTO. He joined it in the 19'teens. OTO was founded as a branch off from the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor by Karl Kelner toward the end of the 19th century. It got the name "Ordo Templi Orientis" in the early 20th century, when it was led by Theo. Reuss. >I think my confusion of the O. T. O. with the G. D. in my earlier post >arose because of your statement above that the O. T. O. had "secret >documents...whose origin is German." There is a "German origin" story >for the G. D. that, as i understand it, relates that a German woman >named Frau Sprungli [sp?] gave MacGregor Mathers textual material and a >warrant or charter that formed the basis for the G. D. rite. When you >wrote above that the O. T. O. had "secret documents...whose origin is >German." i just mentally crossed that G. D. story over to the O. T. O. Westcott of the Golden Dawn and Theo. Reuss of the OTO did correspond with each other. Reuss had a secretary with a similar name to Frauline Springle, but likely that was not the same person. >However, as i said above, this still leaves me wondering about those >mysterious O. T. O. "secret documents...whose origin is German": How do >they relate to the "solar phallic" issue? How you know they are >"German"? Who in Germany gave them to Crowley? Reuss. 93 93/93 Bill Heidrick