From thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org Thu Dec 10 08:46:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: from mindy.accesscom.com (root@ns2.accesscom.com [205.226.156.3]) by shell.accesscom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA27086 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:46:25 -0800 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by mindy.accesscom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id IAA03951 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:46:20 -0800 Received: from mail-out-2.tiac.net (mail-out-2.tiac.net [199.0.65.13]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22638; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:45:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org) Received: from www.hollyfeld.org (www.hollyfeld.org [204.130.199.143]) by mail-out-2.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17986; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:46:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA25309 for thelema93-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:51:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: www.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org using -f Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.80.6.147]) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA25291 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:50:38 -0500 Received: from default (seoul-197.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.228.197]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA07091 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:43:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981210074005.007a87d0@mail.well.com> X-Sender: heidrick@mail.well.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:40:05 -0800 To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org From: Bill Heidrick Subject: Re: (c)OTO Beliefs and OTO Mysticism (was something irrelevant) In-Reply-To: <19981210010453.849.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Status: RO 93, "Victor Cypert" wrote: >Now, here's an apt question-- Is the mempership inclusive of everyone >from O* (or I*) on up or is the membership OF THE OTO those members of >the VII*, VIII*, and IX* who hold the highest levels of initiation in >the system? I always thought that I was in the M.'. M.'. M.'. for now >and that if I made it to the VII* _THEN_ I would be in the OTO (proper.) Associate membership is external like association in any other organization -- not initiated and involving some benefits, mainly record of affiliation and mailing list with things like Link + Oriflamme and the occasional discount on books. Minerval is trial membership, initiate but not full. Ist is the beginning of full OTO membership, local leadership of camps is potential. IInd has a very narrow option to serve before the Xth. IIIrd is the first point where some authority in OTO may be granted beyond local leadership (Including Oasis at this point), for those who are chartered to initiate. IVth+ is transitional. M.'.M.'.M.'. mainly includes Minerval through IIIrd. Vth through VIth opens up midlevel management in OTO as a possibility for the member. VIIth may include upper level clergical ordination and inspection of local operations. VIIIth enfranchizes to vote on national changes in OTO operations. IXth includes proxy representation of Xth and sometimes OHO. Xth is national headship. XIth includes some relatively independent function outside OTO normal administration. XIIth is OHO, international headship. Any initiated membership standing can qualify for national GSG or GTG office or for international SG or TG office. Spokesmanship for OTO policy is by Xth, XIIth and appointees or delegations. In that, VIIth through IXth are closest after specific classes like Tribunals, Colleges and in local venue, local body heads. Individual expression of opinion is unlimited externally, but logical consequences flow from internal consistency. This is not a sinister remark, rather it is a recognition that people are respected in what they say. If somebody says "I resign", that means they loose their membership once it is confirmed as a substantive and intentional statement. If somebody says "I am not a Frater any more, I am a Soror now" -- so recorded. If somebody says Fr. XYZ is a tortfeizer or an active felon, investigation and complaint consequences flow from that. General objection to OTO and its officers usually doesn't have much reaction, but specifics may: e.g. denying OTO to be OTO or saying another organization is OTO may amount to constructive resignation and removal from membership under some forms of such an affirmation. Breaking an oath of secrecy rebounds against the breaker in the context -- since keeping such oaths is part of holding a degree of membership in OTO. This could go on indefinitely, but so can a phone directory. 93 93/93 Bill ____________...oooOOO---thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________ To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe" to thelema93-l-request@hollyfeld.org To unsubscribe your@email.com send "unsubscribe your@email.com" http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/elists/thelema93-l.phtml From thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org Thu Dec 10 19:36:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: from mindy.accesscom.com (root@ns2.accesscom.com [205.226.156.3]) by shell.accesscom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA19568 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:36:38 -0800 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by mindy.accesscom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id TAA14687 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:36:37 -0800 Received: from mail-out-4.tiac.net (mail-out-4.tiac.net [199.0.65.16]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02683; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:36:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org) Received: from www.hollyfeld.org (www.hollyfeld.org [204.130.199.143]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA05044; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:36:03 GMT (envelope-from thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA00782 for thelema93-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:43:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: www.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org using -f Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.80.6.147]) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA00739 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:36:36 -0500 Received: from default (congo-113.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.227.113]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA04697 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:29:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981210182012.0079ec00@mail.well.com> X-Sender: heidrick@mail.well.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:20:12 -0800 To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org From: Bill Heidrick Subject: Re: (c)OTO Beliefs and OTO Mysticism (was something irrelevant) In-Reply-To: <199812101843.MAA21625@mw3.texas.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19981210074005.007a87d0@mail.well.com> <19981210010453.849.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Status: RO 93, content@pop.texas.net wrote: >>IVth+ is transitional. M.'.M.'.M.'. mainly includes Minerval through IIIrd. > >I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but in fact I >believe that the M.'.M.'.M.'. is composed of the degrees >I* - VII* inclusive. There are different theories. With the creation of the US Grand Lodge, we put Minerval through VIIth into it in some adminstrative ways. In simple, for most of Crowley's period, it was Minerval through IIIrd in English Speaking countries and IVth plus got loosely lumped with the group. Perhaps I should have said "OTO mainly includes Minerval through IIIrd by the numbers", but that's not exactly the same notion. Strictly speaking, M.'.M.'.M.'. includes whatever the OHO tells the Xth it does. That has changed over the years. 93 93/93 Bill ____________...oooOOO---thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________ To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe" to thelema93-l-request@hollyfeld.org To unsubscribe your@email.com send "unsubscribe your@email.com" http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/elists/thelema93-l.phtml