Path: ultra.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: catherine yronwode Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.occult Subject: Re: English Qaballa and Racist Agendae (was Re: Gematria and ...) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:15:21 -0800 Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. Lines: 170 Message-ID: <3689628A.159A@luckymojo.com> References: <199812292047.MAA02456@bolt.sonic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d100.pm3.sonic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com CC: sacredlandscape@intuition.org Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick:130350 alt.magick.tyagi:15045 alt.pagan.magick:13134 tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (hara) wrote: > jake@kiblah.demon.co.uk (jake stratton-kent): > > # Old style kabbalah generally involved interpretation of (Hebrew) > # Holy Books, in this 'Aeon;' the Holy Books are in English, and so > # we are accustomed to speaking of 'English Qaballa'. Whom do you mean by "we"? Surely not "we" Jews! > but why call it 'English Qaballa'? why use the word 'Qaballa' at > all rather than coming up with a different name for it which will > avoid confusing cultural mystical identifications? I've been suggesting a new term for it, too. Like rock'n'roll...it ain't really the country blues. I leave it to the Thelemites to devise that name. We Jews will retain the use of the "old style" monicker. > # 666 is the value of the Square of the Sun, and of various Greek > # and Hebrew Names connected with the solar force. This far predates > # Crowley etc. Crowley associated the ideas Sun-Male-Phallus with > # each other, and 'Solar-Phallic' is a term he used fairly often. > # However Thelema is a 'broad church' and not all interpretations > # are 'Solar-Phallic'. > > isn't it true that Crowley's esoteric preferences tended to be the > solar-phallic, however? and doesn't this coincide rather pointedly > with the German (cf. Ordo Templi Orientis, whose secret documents > contain solar-phallic emphases and whose origin is German) mystical > ideas of race purity, aryan white supremacy, and a general attempt > to wipe out or appropriate everything Jewish? See also the genesis of Carl Gustav Jung's theory of the "collective unconscious" (for reference, i recommend highly "The Cult of Jung," by Noll). Jung based his theory of "archetypes" and "the collective unconscious" on the case of a patient in an insane asylum whom he dubbed "The Solar Phallus Man." This fellow claimed to have visions of the sun with a phallus swinging from it. From this, Jung made two false claims (see Noll for documentation): 1) That the Solar Phallus Man was his own patient. (He was not; he was seen and treated by a psychiatric colleague of Jung's who was a drug addict and who later committed suicide.) 2) That the man's visions were identical with ancient Mithraic symbolism which the patient, having been confined, could not have known, and which Jung himself only found years later in the first translation of a Mithraic ritesinto German (and English). (The Mithraic rite in question had been translated into both German and English prior to the patient's incarceration -- and not just in some dusty scholarly journal, either -- but by G. R. S. Meade, in magazines and in a popular edition readily available to anyone in the Theosophical-Rosicrucian occult sub-culture of the time. Jung in fact owned a copy of one of the several editions of this Mithraic rite. The point Noll makes here is two-fold: first, Jung was certainly a plagiarist, a falsifier, and a liar -- but his promotion of "Aryan" Mithraic "solar phallicism" marks him as a racist, which is a greater evil. Noll effectively connects Jung's interest in the "solar phallic cult" of Aryanism with a Volkish determination to remove "semitic" (Jewish) religious practices and attitudes from the culture of the "Germanic" (Aryan) people, of whom he considered himself a member. Jung was not alone in this -- the entire Volkish Movement was filled with such hate agendas, as can be seen by the Nazis, who drew much from Jung and other Volkish theorists. > was Crowley one of these people? Noll does indeed draw links between Crowley's O. T. O. and the Volkish Movement. Read the book. > does he have a bigoted and, > according to Eisler's terminology, a 'Dominator' agenda? I cannot comment on this. I have been told by some of his admirers that Crowley was above such petty "agenda" making... but i think the REAL answer could only be found by learning how Crowley treated Jews, and spoke of Jews in real life, and how respectfully he dealt with Jewish mysticism. > if any of this is true, shouldn't we be careful about what to > accept from this author, I think many of us are already "careful" in that regard. > shouldn't his work be considered strongly > suspect and heavily biased in favor of gross evils? "Suspect"? Perhaps. Gullibly influenced by the racist agenda of the Volkish Movement? Perhaps. No one has asserted a link between Crowley and organized anti-semitism. I have provided a taste of where such documentation can be found in Noll's book, but that book was about JUNG, not Crowley; it is up to Thelemites or their antagonists (of which i am neither) to perform the thorough research needed to see whether Crowley was a dabbler in syncretism who gobbled Jung's "Solar Phallus Man" whole or whether he was also, like Jung, an avowed anti-semite. > possible that everything Crowley touched is subtlely neonazi > in character I think you mean "proto-Nazi." Neo-Nazi refers to the period after the fall of the Third Reich, at which time Crowley was near-dead or completely dead. > and his secret societies are nefarious mind- > numbing desecrators of human compassion and clear reason? The use of over-the-top descriptors like "everything Crowley touched" and "neferious mind-numbing descrators" indicates to me that you are trying for levity. I personally don't see much humour in this subject. Sorry. I also don't think you want anyone to seriously comment on these loaded questions, even if they manage to strip them of their pseudo-humourous wording. However, these questions, in less cutesy language, might run something like this (and i shall append my relies): "Was Crowley an anti-semite? Did he have a bigoted agenda?" The answers are, to me, unknown at present. The hints in Noll's books are merely leads. Someone needs to follow them up. "If he was an anti-semite, shouldn't we be careful about what to accept from this author?" The "if" is unproven. "If he was an anti-semite, shouldn't the accuracy of his scholarly work be considered strongly suspect and potentially heavily biased in favor of anti-semitism or pro-'Aryanism'?" The "if" is unproven, but the lack of accuracy in his scholarly work is already apparent. Whether this is due to anti-semitism per se or simply another egregious instance of his era's widespead inndulgence in "orientalism" and hegemonic appropriation of the cultures of conquered peoples, i have not the slightest clue. "If he was an anti-semite, is it possible that some of what he wrote is subtlely racist in character and his secret societies are tools designed to decrease tolerance among the races and religions of humanity and to decrease human compassion?" The "if" is unproven, and the proof would have to be in the pudding. Thus i would rephrase the question further: "Are Thelemites notably anti-Jewish?" So far, i think the ones i have met in usenet have had a less-than-expected understanding of what constitutes Jewish religious mysticism and some of them have also indicated that think they can appropriate Jewish mysticism for themselves because we "old style" Jews aren't using it anymore. This is not "evil" per se, merely naive arrogance to the point of annoyance. Thus, if Crowley had set about to encode some sort of "agenda" in his secret societies, it would be, as best i can determine from the membership of those societies whom i have met in usenet, an agenda of promoting ignorance and incuriousity, whereby followers would be left in the dark about the sources Crowley plagiarized and parodied and about the people who still use these materials in their own religious mystical practices. catherine yronwode Lucky Mojo Curio Co: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html The Lucky W Amulet Archive: http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html Sacred Sex: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html The Sacred Landscape: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html Freemasonry for Women: http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html Comics Warehouse: http://www.luckymojo.com/comicswarehouse.html check out news:alt.lucky.w for discussions on folk magic and luck