Path: ultra.sonic.net!news From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nigris (333)) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.thelema,talk.religion.misc,alt.magick.order Subject: Thelemic Cult-ure and Choronzon Date: 23 Jul 1999 22:16:27 -0700 Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 222 Message-ID: <7nbi7b$rne@bolt.sonic.net> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bolt.sonic.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:17456 alt.magick:152082 talk.religion.misc:293633 alt.magick.order:3622 49990424 IIIom Hail Choronzon! # Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. The word of Sin is Restriction. 333: # > there ARE Thelemic Christians. Steve Kime : # I understand. But my only exposure to Christianity has been of the # fundamentalist (Calvary Chapel to be exact, even graduated from # their Bible College) and the Catholic kind. As seen from their # viewpoint, becoming a "Thelemic Christian" is a sure ticket to # hell (as in a literal place!) and right they would be given most people's (faulty) premise about what it takes to become a Thelemic Christian. visions of Resh and Lesser Banishing Rites and Gnostic Masses dance in their heads. yet being of Thelemic quality necessitates neither theological views nor ceremonialism. there are Thelemic Christian fundamentalists too! they have conservative views and allow others to remain in their own orbits, content to inform the nearby of the dangers of the world and the glory of their god, then respectfully continuing in their narrow path (through the eye of a veritable needle!), understanding their Scripture literally and disputing the ruminations of the vulgar. I have elsewhere (in response to Randy) explained that there is a difference between Thelemic individuals and organizations. the latter are much more difficult (impossible?) to find. # > ...it is the Thelemic way to go independent. that's # > how most of the best things came into being, when people # > were on their own without indoctrination or handling. # # But what of the OTO? # It'd be nice to be part of a group of people that think # along the same lines as myself and have been down the # path farther than I have. I would expect to receive # valuable guidance. the Wizard (VHMaroney) already answered this in the most eloquent manner I could imagine. I underscore his reply by repeating it here: No one has been down your path farther than you have. But there are plenty of people who would be happy to capitalize on your belief that they have. # ...today, there is a fear at the back of my mind that tells # me the hell of fundamental Christianity may be a reality. # But I certainly don't believe that I'm there or that all # around me is a generic copy of earth. there are important metaphorical truths in most myths. the notion of a realm of spiritual punishment (the Christian is not original, it derives from other, older notions of a dreadful underworld afterlife for sinners) can be a very powerful indicator of the experience of the guilt-ridden hypocrite trapped in a strict standard ill-fitted to hir behavioral repertoire. Steve: # > # My desire now is to re-enter Thelema # > as a religion? I'd advise against it. you may well fuck # > yourself up even worse than you did with Christianity (on # > account of entering into a minority cult that doesn't yet # > have self-restraint by virtue of a history of abuse). # I have to think about this. AC makes alot of sense to me, # and I sincerely believe that Liber Al and other Thelemic # books are indeed inspired. many authors make sense if you give them a try. what about Crowley's text makes the most sense to you and what is so profound (choose a few lines) that it inspires you to join a cult after his name? what do you think that these "Thelemic" books were inspired BY, exactly? what makes the books "Thelemic"? what does the term mean to you? # > # with the aid of some wise counsel and guidance. # > how will you discern the wisdom from the folly? do you # > think you've been able to do this so far? if so, how did # > you wind up in the straights you described? # I believe that possibly joining a trusted organization may # be the way to go, that I may gain a working knowledge of # how to appraoach the path this time around. far be it from me to gainsay you, for you are probably the best single authority on your life. that said, many orgs are "trusted" and simultaneously guilty of the most egregious error, disempowerment of individuals (in the most anti-Thelemic spirit), and distortion of the truth (while purporting to know all the answers). but you haven't answered me really, you have only said that instead of relying on some (idiot?) friends with LSD to manipulate your deep mind you are turning over control to a larger body of individuals. you have not said that you think you'll be able to discern wisdom from folly nor that you know how this could be done. I urge you to look more carefully at this skill and develop it. you speak to it when you say that cultic books were 'inspired', and yet you could merely mean that they inspire you. # > # > and last, become your own prophet, write your # > own damn holy books, burn the Book of the Law # > every year in celebration of its putrescence, # > and find the meaning of your previous 'dilemma'. # This all seems to be good counsel. I have not been instructed to give this counsel by the (c)OTO. no member has given me this recommendation. instead the most common suggestion was luxocentric, fear-based assaults on the spiritual world (LBRP) and pseudo-egyptian solar-phallicism (Resh). I did not follow their advice but found it intriguing. there was some focus on tarot which I admired, and the occasional focus on Crowley's better text ("Book Four" among them) was helpful. cults are notorious for obsessing with the weak-points of their prophets, serving to bring in slaves for the leaders. beware the advice you get from religious groups. re reading pro and con about Crowley and his cohorts: # This would be much appreciated. you might try "The Eye in the Triangle" by Regardie. Crowley includes many of his own foibles as well as lies in his "autohagiography", btw. # > are you more interested in independent ritual # > experimentation and the exploration of consciousness # > than extending yourself socially? # Both, but with an emphasis on the independant ritual # experimentation. keep in mind any cosmological presuppositions which inform the rituals with which you may experiment. some of those popular to the "Thelemic" community may be skewed in their emphases as I have already mentioned. # > consider a variety of "Thelemic" organizations and compare.... # > for example, I exchanged email with Bill Heidrick ((c)OTO) # > before coming into contact with any of the (c)OTO members # > and found this to be a very helpful avenue of entry. # Is there a way that I could get in touch with him? heidrick@well.com as others have already suggested. # > # Mull...Muse... # > # Ruminate...Cogitate... # > # > judgement is absent in these. # # Oh, come on! it was an honest evaluation. all of these consist in reflection but none imply conclusions, resolution, or judgement. that you use it in your sig is indicative of your current condition. # > 333 # # Why the number of Choronzon?? cf. http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/libernigris.fn I suppose my varied pseudonyms mimic Choronzon, though the way most talk about this evil beastie, it appears to be some Guardian of the Abyss and/or a mega-egoic composite of personal shells waiting to test the soul. there is a popular mythos surrounding the Tree of Life which is heroic in quality. ascending this Tree as a metaphor for spiritual development, one is supposedly faced with a great Enemy to best and a great Crevasse to overcome. this Enemy is sometimes said to be that nasty demon Choronzon, given various interpretation, and the Crevasse is the Abyss or Watery Demesne of Dual reflection from the Realm of Matter and Immaturity. I found that this mythos did not really apply to me, that there were other metaphors which did, and that these included becoming the Beast or Guardian rather than fighting with him, making love with the Abyss rather than overcoming her, resolving the Trial up the Tree of Life through Love rather than Will (cf. Simon Iff in Crowley's stories for more on the path of Love in magick). my association with Choronzon was *accidental*, rather than intentional, since as my brother has pointed out elsewhere on this email list, I took the name "nigris" (which happened to imply the number 333 via one system of gematria) in order to indicate my role with respect to the Thelemic culture and pioneer an alternative to the Will- based obsession gripping the hearts and souls of so many mages and self-proclaimed 'Thelemites'. # [333], thank you so much for your response.... my pleasure. Invoke me under my stars. # Love is the law, love under will. Frater I Nigris (333) 666 nagasiva@luckymojo.com -- emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired