From server@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu Sat Feb 18 08:10:00 1995 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (root@nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id IAA25395 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 08:09:59 -0800 Received: from nosferatu.cas.usf.edu (nosferatu.cas.usf.edu [131.247.31.155]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id IAA07794 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 08:09:58 -0800 Received: (server@localhost) by nosferatu.cas.usf.edu (8.6.8/8.3) id LAA18857; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 11:31:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 11:31:24 -0500 Message-Id: <950218110820_25396662@aol.com> Comment: Discussion of Magick in general Originator: thelema93-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu Errors-To: sarkis@luna.cas.usf.edu Reply-To: thelema93-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu Sender: thelema93-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu Version: 5.5 -- Copyright (c) 1991/92, Anastasios Kotsikonas From: BHeidrick@aol.com To: Subject: Re: Martinism + OTO etc Status: RO 93, Martin E. Jacobs (mjacob1@orion.it.luc.edu) writes: >Actually there are at least *five* remaining Martinist Orders (there are >four repesented in Chicago alone), not including the one operating in AMORC >which is generaly regarded as >illigitimate. Fortunately they're frendly with each other for the most >part ang tend to recognize each others initiations (but not always). Some of those may be cross-connected in lineage. >how did the OTOA come to be? I've always >been told that Papus chartered it to H.F. Jean-Maine in 1921. but the >name Krumm Heller has never come up. Papus' chartering is not clearly demonstrated. In any event, this looks to be a variant of Martinism more than O.T.O.A. Krum Heller (Fr. Hurachocha) created O.T.O.A. and several other organization umbrella names as a vehicle for his O.T.O. charter. His field of activity was mainly the Spanish speaking world, and mostly the New World at that. >What does this OTOA have to do with >the Spanish/Haitian OTOA of M. Bertiaux, Courtney Willis & Manuel >Lamparter (being the OTOA that I'm invoved with)? Apparently nothing. Bertiaux has claimed a lot in this regard toward the Franco Haitian O.T.O. that Papus did operate. In the process, Bertiaux has tended to confuse the F-HOTO with the OTOA and many other things. I have never seen a scrap of evidence that Bertiaux's OTOA and Franco-Haitian O.T.O. claims are based on anything but his imagination. Long lists of who taught whom and who did what are pointless in establishing a claim of this sort --- although they do express a theory of descent, they don't establish authority or prove that the described descent actually took place. >There's a Gnostic >Bishop in Miami named Roberto Toca who has an OTOA group, but I don't >know if it's tied to us in any way. As far as I have been able to trace, Bertiaux's claims in the O.T.O. direction are made up --- except for the Gnostic Catholic church, a consecration of which (outside O.T.O. lines) he appears to have received via his brother. Roberto Toca claims to have received a charter from the O.T.O.A. originated by Krum Heller, but states that he was unable to bring his papers from Cuba when he emigrated. Krum Heller's son, Partzival Krum Heller, has expressed grave doubts regarding Bishop Toca's claims. It is possible that Bishop Toca received a charter (now lost or remaining in Cuba) from one of the regional O.T.O.A. (&c.) authorities established by Krum Heller Sr. toward the end of his life. That would not grant him authority to operate outside of Cuba, except as a representative in exile. Krum Heller's regional chartering was narrow to the following generation, according to his son's account received last year. >You said that the OTO derives >from the Fraternitas Hermetica Luxor, which in turn derived from >Martinism and the Elus Cohens. I always understood that the lower degree >of the OTO were taken from the Rite of Memphis and Misraim. Is there some >overlap or was I incorrect? That's the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, a variant of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Light. It was an extension of the work of Beverly Pascal Randolph, who was in turn a Martinist. The Rites of Memphis and Misraim were brought into the mix by Karl Kellner, through charter from John Yarker in the first few years of the 20th century. Kellner and Reuss formed the O.T.O., using M&M as an entrance series with the degrees proper to O.T.O. beyond. When Crowley re-wrote the O.T.O. rituals, at the direction of Reuss and to avoid problems with Craft and AASR Masonry, he drew partly on the M&M to flesh out the rites. The O.T.O. initiation rituals are still closer to Craft and AASR than to anything else. 93 93/93 Bill Heidrick