From thelema93-l-owner@bitsy.hollyfeld.org Tue Jan 2 19:22:53 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA00133 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:22:52 -0800 Received: from bitsy.hollyfeld.org ([198.70.189.30]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA25471 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:22:44 -0800 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA30335 for thelema93-l-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:05:40 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (root@nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA30331 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:05:29 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA24487 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:06:34 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id TAA28770 for thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:06:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199601030306.TAA28770@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Secrecy and Thelema (Was: A simple hello) To: thelema93-l@HOLLYFELD.ORG (Thelema93-Listserv) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:06:32 -0800 (PST) From: tyagi@HOUSEOFKAOS.ABYSS.COM (Xiwang mu) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 10049 Sender: owner-thelema93-l@HOLLYFELD.ORG Precedence: bulk reply-to: thelema93-l@bitsy.hollyfeld.org Status: RO kaliyuga 49960102 |From: Walter Cassidy Welcome to the elist. ;> E6! Check the King! |...I am getting very tired of secrets in groups. Get used to them. I don't think they're going away for a while as yet, and perhaps never. There are very important aspects of secrecy for the establishment of groups, even if the 'secret' is something obvious yet difficult to acquire (thus the lack of luster in 'open Orders'). I have argued against secrecy for many years, and continue to do so, quite joyously. Yet, I have been met with very worthy opponents on the fields of intellectual squabble who have given me very tasty bones of their values to chew upon. I'll be happy to continue discussion of it with you and relate what I can remember, perhaps dredging up items from archives and composing a sort of 'thread-stomper' (REFerence file :>) on the subject of Secrecy. |...I am tired of not enough info being out there. There is more information available to the public than ever before in the course of human history. What you are tired of, I'd wager, is running into 'Information Resource Closed' signs with devious occultists whispering in your presence the precious secrets of the cosmos. :> Whatever be the case, there is no more important information you can discern than the measure and timbre of yourself (thus the pre-eminent magical dictum: 'know thyself oh mage'), for unless and until you can determine your own nature, all the information in the world will fall upon your inability to apply it successfully. Consider also the possibility that you have simply never been trained in or learned the language of the Art, and therefore miss important cues and offerings. We live in a world of fear, and many mages, especially those within occult Orders, have submitted willingly to oaths of secrecy in their desire to become part of their Current (does anyone have some idea where this term originates and how it was used within the history of Western occultism?). I continually advise against such oaths, but understand that they are at once very valuable to the working mage should hir will be to accept them in full cognizance and at times incredibly important for the integrity of organizations which are genuinely operating 'at risk' within the socities in which they reside. |Correct me if I was wrong but one of the reasons Crowley published the |Equinox was to get the Golden Dawn rituals etc out there for all to |access. Now you're talking history, of which I am poorly informed (consensus consciousness regarding the past was never really one of my foci of study until I started looking at *really old* things and finding myth). I gather that this is largely incorrect, but other folx on this elist can better direct your attention to historical documents or provide the necessary background themselves. |What I am still having trouble finding is a Thelemic approach to sex |magick, Face it, we live in a repressed world. You and I and the 'true Thelemites' can set the example and exchange information right out in the open under their noses until those who can stand to tread the borders of their oaths will join our cause and throw the secrecy-mongers into relief. Until then we might as well learn to understand our brothers and sisters as they take what precautions they feel to be necessary. It was for this reason that I found it valuable to enter into a very direct and lasting relationship with a 'secret society' (US OTO): in part because I found it easily; in part because it associated with the ACman, whose writings had inspired me greatly; and in part because they began restructuring their admissions policies such that even those such as I, an opponent of secrecy and Revolutionary of Order was allowed within their midst, a sort of Spy of Undoing. Such was the test I gave unto my kin, and over the years it has heated up and simmered down upon occasion. I *still* do not recommend joining such organized bodies unless it be your will and you know it, but I can say I am happy to continue among its number despite the barriers I have placed before them in their desire to 'promulgate the Law of Thelema'. |I have studying Asian forms, Priapian forms, etc I would like to hear more about these, how they compared, where you learned of them, etc. (here or in Usenet's alt.magick.tantra if you prefer). I have no restrictions guarding my tongue, so be forewarned of what you tell me. |but when it comes down to 93 rites it hard to find with out always |reading between the line. Are you speaking of something specific here (masonic things?)? If you feel that the only way you can learn sex magick is to enter into these rites, then you have a choice. Nobody is forcing you, and you admit yourself that you have found information about sex magick elsewhere (better than I've done all told -- I'd like to hear more from you). You really interested in cessation of secrecy? Start with yourself. I contend you will not lose more than a batch of organized mage-sources and you'll find rogues and renegades more and more as the yuga progresses. |This is |not a Victorian period anymore I think it is about time there more info |about this subject. I'm none too sure about this period. There is fear and sniping afoot. If you betray your oaths to an Order, I advise that you watch your back. ;> |Maybe there is, and I am looking the wrong places. Look within. That is where you find the most important rites. In general the rest will only be templates upon which you may stencil your own signature rite, chew up and absorb its form and structure and integrate it into your own workings. I doubt many come upon these rituals and exalt in them as so passed on. Even Crowley largely altered the rites he learned to suite his need/taste. |We all know what each degree "secret" is I think this may be one of your limitations. Here, let me show you. Are you talking about the vulgar interpretations of *OTO*'s ritual initiation secrets? These are contained in their most gross form online and elsewhere, spoken of in most 'Thelemic' magick houses, snickered as 'secrets' behind hands in front of the 'profane', and in general poorly understood and seldom truly studied in any depth. I do not claim to know them myself. I thought the vulgar (common) interpretations hilarious, and could not believe my ears when my kin would in hushed tones briefly mention them as 'coveted secrets'. Poppycock! The Mysteries cannot be so apprehended in such crude form except as abstractions, like universal principles to the child, barely touched upon and never utilized to advantage. Yet as you say 'we all know', then I wish you to elaborate at least where you think they are published, briefly examining each one in slight detail, and demonstrating to us how much there is to know about any of them (choose only one of your favorites should this give you greater pleasure). Tie these in to all the various sexual magick 'secrets' you have obtained from Asia, Mr. Priap (joke), and your related self-reflection. |...I am more talking a thelemic ritual to play with. I am a student. I ask questions. What constitutes a 'Thelemic ritual' in your eyes? How can we tell when we've stumbled upon a gold nugget or a tar baby? What qualities do you associate with this phrase? |Current 93 works for me, and I would like to exband it in my sex magick |but for some reason it is still considered a big secret. Secrets are still maintained so as to disempower the individual, absorbing their energies for the use of the group. People can call this a 'current' or 'Current' if they like, but when it becomes a CULT with fostered information scarcity concerning specific subjects and sacrifices the Law of Thelema to slake its thirst for edus then it becomes more an obstacle than an assistance, more a danger than a liberator. Ask these questions of the Orderlies you frequent: when are the instructions of these rituals given? How many people are currently privvy to such rites? What are the obstacles to that access? Then ask yourself if you really want to pay the price they are advertizing as well as if it is your will to endure it for some reason. I am not personally involved with my Order so as to gain its secrets. Eventually it will come to me and ask me to fill it once again with substance as the last bit drains out of their secrecy mechanisms -- for I assert that restriction of this kind is, in the long run, counter to the very goals and values which the Order claims to support. | But maybe I am just being a fustrated man who wants it all to |quickly, ... Perhaps you have bitten into the information-acquisition apple and, unaware of its addictive properties, waste your time in procuring more and more fishing poles while standing by a pond filled with trout. Lao Tzu is said to have taught people to fish rather than catching fish for them and exalting his rod. Perhaps this applies here too, but in more sexual ways. |but I just thought I introduce myself with a question and need |that has been bugging me alot. There are lots of hints but no clear |focus how it is done in a Thelemic way. I suspect that you are either very young and impatient (I know I was and in some ways still am and so perhaps I recognize this in you) or you have been given bait all your life with nobody telling you that the hook may have nasty teeth where oaths and Orders and secrecy are concerned. Meanwhile, wandering about all over the stream are nomads and renegades (Kings in the guise of Slaves) who, with some patience and tact, would be happy to give you their fishing rod for but a bit of companionship and a small piece of your heart. I'll post a followup to this elist concerning Sex Magick in its vulgar form so as not to too horribly confuse the lot of you, as presented by someone in alt.magick (its founder, even). Do as you please, for love is the Law. Xiwang mu tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com