Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!dobie.loop.com!pma50.loop.com!user From: mhass703@loop.com (Michelle Klein-Hass) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.pagan Subject: Re: Magick, Taoism and Change (Was Re: Critical Perspectives on Occult Group ...) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:25:52 -0800 Organization: Animation Nerd At Large, Anvil Anthology Magazine Lines: 100 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <482s9g$h1u@nkosi.well.com> <78077@toad.com> <48dcfi$mpq@due.unit.no> <78250@toad.com> <48ish1$inh@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <78764@toad.com>

<4a9r9q$kna@jobe.shell.portal.com> <4akc2r$e0d@idefix.CS.kuleuven.ac.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: pma50.loop.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick:61480 alt.magick.tyagi:5450 alt.philosophy.taoism:2316 alt.pagan:137106 In article <4akc2r$e0d@idefix.CS.kuleuven.ac.be>, Koen Van Damme wrote: Tyagi wrote: >> Some contend that the requirement of some kind of goal toward >> which one must aspire makes impossible a natural mysticiism such >> as taoism, and that this means taoism and magick are >> irreconcilable. Fung Yu-lan's texts suggest to my mind that >> this is due to the combination of religious and magical practices >> and that the religious and philosophical or mystical taoists are >> in some way irreconcilable (he does not speak to it directly in >> the text which I have yet reviewed). >> I think this is short-sighted. Taoism is more than we might want >> to make it out. It is a living tradition and has seeded itself >> in countless homes memetically and in some cases practically. I >> don't think that taoism is devoid of goals, and these goals ought >> concern us perhaps more, in the analysis of taoist magick, than >> any other subject: immortality/longevity, mystical experience >> and cautious wisdom, ruling the cosmos, and merging with tao. > >You have to explain this to me. Isn't misticism all about NOT wanting, >NOT needing, NOT striving? And now you suggest that this is in some way >compatible with magick, which you defined as a WILLED action. Am I missing >the point? I think that Tyagi is speaking from a perspective of trying to, at all costs, reconcile the classic Daoism of Lao-tzu which holds that Nature is not to be disturbed, with the classic Western Magickal idea that "Nature unaided fails." No less a writer/spiritual adventurer than Aleister Crowley attempted that trick. And Crowley ended up on the wrong end of the equation: losing sight of the Dao by being too caught up with Magick. Perhaps the New Current would be better served if people would go the other way around. The consequences of our attempts to change the natural world are all around us. It seems as if, perhaps, we need to not lose sight of the Dao by perhaps spending less time with trying to cause change in others and in our environment according to our Will, and more time causing change in ourselves. I consider myself a Thelemic Daoist. I find that much of what Crowley/Aiwaz tried to communicate in the Book of the Law is communicated in a clearer and more direct way in the Dao Deh Jing. This is not to say Liber AL is not without merit: it is. But much of it seemed to flow from, or at least get filtered by, Crowley's own mindset and personal hobby-horses he delighted to ride. Lao-tzu, on the other hand (if there was a real Lao-tzu...but that's an entirely different can of worms) didn't set out to do anything more than set out the philosophy which worked for him, in a neat little manuscript of 5,000 Chinese characters. He didn't espouse himself as the "Magus" of any new Aeon...he even suggests in the book that the philosophy he was writing was one which existed long before he was born. As a Thelemite, I do agree with the central assertions of Liber AL: 1.) Human beings have value in and of themselves, as individuals. The greatest task an individual faces in their life (or lives) is to ascertain the flow of their own individual purpose, and follow it. 2.) The old religious value of sacrifice of self (or sacrifice of anything else, for that matter) is obsolete. 3.) Sexuality needs to be resacralized after 6,000 years of being thought of as dirty, sinful and unholy. 4.) We are in a transition period between the old paradigm of Angry Father Gods and Suffering Saviors and a new paradigm where new spiritual and physical conditions apply. 5.) All philosophies and spiritual techniques need to be reassessed in light of the emerging new conditions. But as one attempting in her own halting way to follow the Dao as I understand it (which is not very well, thank you...I'm no master) I see that Crowley was too in love with the ideas he picked up in the Golden Dawn and too obsessed by the religious dogma he was force-fed in his childhood to see that Dao and Magick are pretty much irreconcileable, and that choosing Magick over Dao was a bad mistake. I mean, ceremony has its place, but that place is growing smaller and smaller as time goes on. The aim in both the classic Daoism of Lao-tzu and of the G.'.D.'. tradition that Crowley continued in his own unique fashion is Initiation with a big "i". But Initiation needn't be a process which requires elaborate ceremony with many officers. Initiation is an unfolding process which takes place between the Candidate and Forces Different From Ourselves. (To say "higher forces" requires a qualitative judgement which I would rather not make!) Initiation can take place in a formal temple or during a walk in the woods attended by no-one but the Candidate. Whether in the midst of a big ceremony or in a personal epiphany, the process still remains one of communication between the Candidate and Forces Different From Ourselves. Wow, this certainly opened up a big can of worms! 93, --.\\<-H-- -- Have better physical and mental health...watch more cartoons! AOL: MHass703, Net: mhass703@loop.com, michelle.hass@ledge.com Web site soon to come...watch this space for future developments This post is my own damn opinion!