From thelema93-l-owner@bitsy.hollyfeld.org Tue Aug 20 07:59:32 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA05619 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:59:32 -0700 Received: from bitsy.hollyfeld.org (bitsy.hollyfeld.org [38.240.235.1]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA27767 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:59:11 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA06411 for thelema93-l-outgoing; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:15:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: bitsy.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-thelema93-l using -f Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06405 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:14:54 -0400 From: LilWing623@AOL.COM Received: by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01955 for thelema93-l@bitsy.hollyfeld.org; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:56:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:56:31 -0400 Message-ID: <960820105631_505673295@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: thelema93-l@bitsy.hollyfeld.org Subject: LOVE in Theory and Practice Sender: owner-thelema93-l@bitsy.hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk reply-to: thelema93-l@bitsy.hollyfeld.org Status: RO Do what thou wilt shall be thew hole of the law. In a message dated 96-08-19, Jeffrey Smith wrote: << is Agape truly inclusive of sexual promiscuity? Or is sexual activity just one of those things allowed by "do what thou wilt"? The Scriptural paradigm speaks of love "With all your soul, with all your heart, and all your might"--suggesting more of making Love an operation of Will, to be expressed as circumstances dictate. And I recall nothing in Liber Al to contradict this. >> >> Right Jeffrey, Scripture says that, and Liber AL says things to that effect, but is this Agape? I doubt it very much... that is, if we are describing Agape in the way the authors of the New Testament undestood it. And Agape is *necessarily* in New Testament terms *exclusive*, not inclusive, of sexual promiscuity. This is because theoretically, Agape is only to be had between two beings anyway : God and man. But, there are TWO kinds of Love. Agape -- which is exclusive of sex, and which is a more "Divine" kind of love, and that which is best described as Eros -- the Love that we have in our everyday lives between each other, and also our Love for the gods or God. And Liber AL supports this : "Nor let the fools mistake love; for there are love and love. There is the dove, and there is the serpent. Choose ye well." (I:57). When Liber AL talks love, even of Nuit's unwavering love for us, it is a selective love. Agape does not love selectively. It is an unquestioning love... a love that would prompt someone perhaps to make the supreme sacrifice for the one that s/he loves, as in the case of God sacrificing his son for mankind, and Jesus sacrificing himself for mankind, in New Testament terms. Kathleen Higgins, in her book on Neitzsche's _Zarathustra_ put it accurately : "The Christian law of love...proposes a goal of absolute self-denial and unselfishness, a goal that's incompatible with even the minimal degree of self interest that's essential to continued existance as a Self" (62). This is why I mentioned that the only cases I can find for Agape in Crowlean Thelema are: 1) as an archetypal sort of love... in theory, but not [usually] in practice, and 2) K&C of the HGA which involves sacrifice, and, is in every way an `Agapic' union. Chapter Delta eta in Liber Aleph cunningly describes Agape, detaching it from Eros : "Love is an Expression of the Will of the Body, yea, *and more also*, of that which created the Body; and its Operation is commonly between One and One...", pseudo italics mine. Sexual Love as a path to the gods is part of Eros, and is described in detail in Plato's Symposium, where at one point it's said : "[Love] is mediator who spans the chasm which divides them, & therefore by him the universe is bound together... For God mingles not with man; but through Love all the intercourse & converse of gods with men...is carried on..." (202e -- 303a). Is Agape prescribed per Libers AL and Aleph as the way we should Love in practice? Well, I can only find evidence *against* it, not for. "...nor do I demand aught in sacrifice " (I:58) and " For one kiss wilt thou then be willing to give all; but whoso gives one particle of dust shall lose all in that hour." I believe Liber Aleph in Epsilon nu (145) also warns against self-sacrifice for the sake of others : "But to persist in Dullness, in Satiety, and in mutual Irritation & Abhorrence, is contrary to the way of Nature. So therefore there is no rule in any such Case, but the Law shall give Light to everyone that hath it in his Heart & by that Wisdom, let him govern himself." Paul, in Lett to Corinths says something similar, but, in true Xian form, limits it to 'unbelievers' : " (Should the *unbelieving* partner be determined to separate, however, separation let it be; in such cases the Christian brother or sister is not tied...)" (7:15). Sound familiar? Remove the Sinful Restriction and we have "O lover, if thou wilt, depart" (I:41). I repeat what I mentioned to you yesterday Jeffrey, that Paul's chapter dealing with sexuality is kept completely separate from the first chapters of Letters, because even the Bible distinguishes Agape from Eros. Well, I could go on all day, but I think I should quit here. Love is the law, love under Will. Elaine