From tyagi@bjt.net Sun Nov 17 06:01:13 1996 Return-Path: tyagi@bjt.net Received: from kudonet.com (kudonet.com [165.227.52.1]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA23830 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 06:01:10 -0500 Received: by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA10019; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 01:53:26 -0800 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 01:53:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199611170953.BAA10019@kudonet.com> To: tyagi@hollyfeld.org Subject: 9611.thelpbs.tn From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Status: O >Path: kudonet.com!kudo!tyagi >From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) >Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.moderated,alt.magick,alt.magick.order >Subject: Thelemic Criticism of AC's Ideas (was Letter to the Editor...) >Followup-To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.order >Date: 16 Nov 1996 23:30:19 -0800 >Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services >Lines: 102 >Sender: tyagi@bjt.net >Approved: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com >Message-ID: >Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) >NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo.kudonet.com >Xref: kudonet.com alt.magick.tyagi:8151 alt.magick.moderated:68 alt.magick:76278 alt.magick.order:1395 [Orig-To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org; cc'd to Usenet] 49961112 AA1 Hail Satan! E6 Tim 'the Wizard' Maroney : #># While Crowley was very proud of #># his interminable cabalistic noodlings and his idle juxtapositions of #># symbols with which he had only a passing familiarity, his speculations #># have had no significant impact on the fields of comparative religion or #># the psychology of mysticism. uncited (PStuart I suspect): #> Hmm. Documentation? Your opinion only? Tim Maroney # Can you find any Crowley references in search abstracts and dissertations # in these fields? I can't. I don't recall any scholar outside occultism # ever using Crowley as a reference for anything. If you know of some # influence his work has had on comparative religion or psychology, I'd # certainly be interested in following your references. comparative religion: Aidan Kelly (cites Crowley as major inspiration to Wicca) psychology/mysticism: Timothy Leary? (less sure about that one) + esoteric politics: Robert Anton Wilson (lots within Cosmic Trigger + Leary) # I'd love to see any references to significant inquiry into the # assumptions behind Crowley's system in any Thelemic book or zine. this is what I've been watching for for years and have set about creating them myself as regards 'fratribus nigris', 'sin' and 'lust for result' (refs upon request), in essay form online. I did see some nice work within 'Starfire' (discontinued), and there was an occasional touch in the 'OZone' newsletters I've seen. I have seen a little (not much) in old 'Thelema Lodge Newsletters' (some of Br. Bill's writings do present interpretations but not such an overall analysis as to be called 'significant inquiry', and there have been similar expressions without critical review in 'Magical Link'. the old 'Email Without Tears' (online pub) did contain some of my essays which attempted meager inquiries as I've mentioned above. occasional magazines like that of 'Mezla' and those of Chaotes (Chaos International, Thanateros) and Satanists sometimes reference Crowley but do not usually delve too deeply into a serious analysis of his ideas, from my perusal of early issues. 'In The Continuum' (at least within most of the first 4 volumes I have at my disposal) glosses most everything or keeps to conventional ideas except when containing writings by Crowley himself or letters to which the Editor was privileged. I have seen few 'Thelemic' books or zines beyond this and would love to hear other people's review of their contents in relation to this very important issue. #The only ones I can think of are in Kenneth Grant, and he's pretty loony. I've scanned or used for research many of Grant's texts and find him very inspirational, if in serious want of editor/herald. He does indeed attempt (at times incredibly unconvincingly) an analysis of Crowley's work, his leaps of logic not being always very easy to follow, especially when he begins to use his gematria as a fulcrum. #(Rodney is creative in his practices but doesn't question basic #assumptions in his book; DuQuette and del Campo are straight party line, #as is Beta.) I'm not interested in the usual bickering about trivialities #like how long cookies need to be baked or whether you have to pay forty #dollars before you can be a Priestess; I'm interested in people asking #questions which bear on the philosophical ground of the system: the #existence of True Will, the conflict between nominalism and idealism, the #effectiveness of magic, the validity of astrology, the suspicious #circumstances under which the Book of the Law was received, and so on. these topics occasionally arise here and in other online forums, but they are usually not deeply delved and are short-lived of participation (perhaps with good reason -- few are really simultaneously magicians, writers, reporters and philosophers). #I've never seen any of these issues raised in print; what I do see #constantly enacts the assumption that we are all of one mind about these #issues. I must admit that the little I have examined within Thelemic publications does appear to fall prey to precisely the weakness here pointed out by the Wizard. E6/6/6 nigris (333) tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- see http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html and call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!! ---- (emailed replies may be posted) ---- CC public replies to email ---- * * * Asphalta Cementia Metallica Polymera Coyote La Cuckaracha Humana * * *