From tyagi@bjt.net Sun Nov 17 06:32:24 1996 Return-Path: tyagi@bjt.net Received: from kudonet.com (kudonet.com [165.227.52.1]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA23947 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 06:32:20 -0500 Received: by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA10848; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:24:36 -0800 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:24:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199611171024.CAA10848@kudonet.com> To: tyagi@hollyfeld.org Subject: 9611.thscrcy.tn From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Status: O >Path: kudonet.com!kudo!tyagi >From: tyagi@HOUSEOFKAOS.ABYSS.COM (nigris (333)) >Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.moderated,alt.magick.order,talk.religion.misc >Subject: Secrecy and Thelema >Followup-To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.order,talk.religion.misc >Date: 17 Nov 1996 00:53:00 -0800 >Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services >Lines: 194 >Sender: tyagi@bjt.net >Approved: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com >Message-ID: >Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) >NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo.kudonet.com >Xref: kudonet.com alt.magick.tyagi:8162 alt.magick:76291 alt.magick.moderated:76 alt.magick.order:1399 talk.religion.misc:215974 [Orig-To: thelema93-l@bitsy.hollyfeld.org] [technical difficulties enforced delay -- apologies for outdatedness] kaliyuga (your time) 49960105 lunatix full The questions I'd ask to turn this toward 'Thelema' include: is secrecy in the sense of occulting texts for the purposes of cementing social groups 'Thelemic'? Despite my noisiness I think it is. Xastur: |What do you consider would be "important aspects of secrecy..."? ... in the establishment of organizations." Well, I'd say that for one it protects the potential initiate from exposure to rites she may or may not be wanting to see. Some claim it is necessary to protect the innocent, but I am unsure how to or if I want to assess another's maturity in this way. There are other reasons, such as protection of a group-owned asset (an important legal maneuver I think) in the form of hidden doctrines or signs, which are still very important in (at least Western) governments and military establishments ('passwords', 'secret codes', etc.). I also think that there should be a trade, supporting the ability of a group to maintain its privacy as a type of personal ego (secrecy), in exchange for the rights of citizens to worship in any way they so choose, barring violence and coersion, but that's another issue. :> |Can we do magick without orders? I think it would be unwise to intentionally break them up, and I see a great many values being served through the support of magical orders. I wouldn't count them as absolutely necessary, only cherished and/or desired by their members. |Oooh...do you mean, fix yourself and the universe will provide? I'm |schocked to hear you say that, mu. No, build a house on a firm foundation, that's all. One can't help others or even satisfy one's desires without resolving survival issues adequately. Maslow wrote about this in his hierarchy of needs. |>Consider also the possibility that you have simply never been trained |>in or learned the language of the Art, and therefore miss important cues |>and offerings. |...What's the "language of the Art"? In part, metaphor. In part a peculiar way of thinking which is a type of projection *beyond* the texts or vocal instruction, this could lead to the a kind of 'jam' with the complexity of one's life and move into a different experience entirely. But in general I have heard a great many people ascribe the texts of 'sex magick' or 'alchemy' of various sorts with a certain 'mystical meaning' which may be only derived from knowing the symbolic association 'keys', and these function as a type of 'lock' which dissuades the merely curious and confounds the fool or innocent. It is said that they are placed upon materials so as to protect the 'current' of the magick from encounter with violation as well as to protect the reader from serious harm. |And where can one get that if one is solitary? Revelation, reading enough books which describe parables (thus the value of the Western religious scripture). Through computers. :> |Are the oaths disclosed before one takes them when joining an order? I think it may be a serious mistake to swear oaths at all, unless it is your will and you can benefit thereby. If they weren't disclosed, then whether they are acknowledged at all may be at issue. Serious cult-like organizations could develop (and have!) and it is possible that coersion could make this a dangerous enslavement tool. I have joined an Order without knowing the oaths beforehand, though I was later told that I could have seen the ritual text of the oaths prior to the rites. As it turned out I didn't need to do that (I didn't swear anything which I felt restricts behaviors I would not already have chosen, though I must admit my interpretations of terms and contexts was, I have heard, not that of the Official Interpretation, so beware -- heheheh). |>Face it, we live in a repressed world. You and I and the 'true |>Thelemites' can set the example and exchange information right out in |>the open under their noses until those who can stand to tread the borders |>of their oaths will join our cause and throw the secrecy-mongers into |>relief. Until then we might as well learn to understand our brothers |>and sisters as they take what precautions they feel to be necessary. |That's very nice, though I would be interested in finding out how you |can do that while forming an established order. It is the objective of established orders to conceal objects to preserve the integrity of their group ego and illusory superiority. It forms the basis of a sort of elitist self-propping, and it can be both the most hilarious joke while at the same time a sacred and moving environment. It is very simple for an Order to become established. One writes a document which one thinks to be valuable, especially concerning something in demand, and then one conceals this from the public and makes condition of membership a requirement for disclosure. There can be several layers to this, but if there is some sort of hoop- system (initiations, studies, master-slavery-relationships, etc.), then it will keep the information secret long enough to make it unimportant how many people know the information but are still interested in the author's text (popular authors make more lively Order initiates for this reason). There are lots of other ways to have such orders (conceal anything except information), even sacred objects, relics, 'power objects', previous Order member's body parts, etc., etc. There is just such a great deal of focus on information and knowledge that it short- circuits our brains and we can't figure out what we might wish to do aside from submit in order to *discover* (tear off that veil!). We might not always want what's behind that veil. |The examples I have seen in the past, and somewhat in the present indicate |otherwise. Name one Order whose works they desired to have 'under wraps' have been published out in the open contrary to these desires (beyond the GD stuff, whatever you take it to be). I gathered the technique of occulting texts has been fairly effective. The ideas are not as important as the text itself, and all Orders eventually turn over materials from previous generations for the perusal of their progeny (even if it wasn't all that important or well-written). We're talking about social groups which rely on the power of the law and their ability to make private texts as a partial incentive for group assimilation. The technique isn't very sophisticated, but what must accompany this tactic is an attraction mechanism which inspires people to want to see the documents anyway or belong to the organization due to its prestige/purposes/affiliations/etc. |If you can come up with a model of non-secrecy occult order, |I'd be very interested in seeing it. I think by now you can see what I mean by this. The model could be any way you wanted about it. In some way you just make it known among the membership that they cannot share the 'Order materials' that one gets as a benefit of such membership (as the ToS does). The information may be shared as desired. Even COTO is this way, to my knowledge, though who knows what the OHO is going to decide next. ;> Only the specific texts are controlled (see the AA's gradation schema and add 'O#' for 'Occulted' with # dependent upon the level of initiate that is allowed to possess such documents. The rest depends on access controls to the documents themselves and verification of integrity and honesty of the incoming membership (through personal interaction; anybody can be a member, but only those who are secure will be allowed to obtain 'occult materials'. The individual documents associated with the degrees can shift and change over time, and some can shift until a popular text has locked in and then play until all degree slots are formalized and the Order becomes to take on an 'aged' character (perhaps we can specify a spectrum of Orderly age based on the rigidification of elements such as secret texts and ritual signs and grips, etc. |I suggest also looking at some yoni worship.Try Tyagi's page. I'm sure mu |can give you the URL on here. http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html vamamarga! |Any on Yoni worship? You know you need both to do good sex magick. Well, some don't. Priaps, I guess, at *least*. ;> nigris (333) tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- see http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html and call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!! ---- (emailed replies may be posted) ---- CC public replies to email ---- * * * Asphalta Cementia Metallica Polymera Coyote La Cuckaracha Humana * * *