Path: Supernews!supernews.com!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.christnet Subject: Christian and Belief Magick Date: 27 May 1997 19:07:56 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 133 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5mg41s$1oh@kudo20.kudonet.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews alt.magick.tyagi:12380 alt.magick:102838 alt.christnet:251640 Orig-Cc: SilverChalice Elist ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 49970520 AA1 Hail Satan! may peace be upon you, my kin. in Silver Chalice (Christian Magick) Elist, Stefaan Six : #I'm new on this list and I don't really know what's the topic of interest #right now. there haven't been any in some time, though I've occasionally sent a file or two through here as bait. I was reading William Gray recently and think that his text may prove to yield an inspirational excerpt as regards Christian magick at some point, to seed discussions. the last item I'd wanted to talk about was what prophesies Jesus is said to have fulfilled and where these are located, since it might provide or flesh out the formula I'm developing for self-initiation into the Christian magical path. if you have any knowledge of this (it shouldn't be much more than a little Biblical reference, something I'll eventually take up myself with the #bible folks in IRC if all else fails), please offer it here and we can try to discern the underlying Biblical message. thanks. elsewise categorizing the works (magick) of Christ would be a good start at attempting to begin a generalized description of the limitations of magick where Christians are concerned. #Has anyone of you read one of the books of Dr Joseph Murphy ? I have not. #...he claims that if you just belief hard enough you will get whatever #you want (as long as it is in accordance with the universal law). sounds somewhat like _The Power of Positive Thinking_, by Norman Vincent Peale. is the belief supposed to be something specific ("I will have a new car in my driveway tomorrow"?) or about God ("I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen"?), or something else? what is 'the universal law'? #It seems to me that in this way he is opposing the traditional magickal #beliefs who teach us to elaborate on a ritual to get what we want. I think I see what you're pointing out here, yes. Aleister Crowley (that Christian rascal) says in his _Book Four_ that what is necessary in any magical pursuit is what he calls 'the magical link'. this would appear to be a major difference between intentional belief of any sort and applied ceremonial rite in the manifestation of the Will. I would point out, however, that Crowley does suggest something similar to the belief-it-true method in his 19th Letter within _Magick Without Tears_, where in he describes a small rite (nothing complex) such that he recommends affirming to oneself (paraphrased for application to this forum) 'I am here to do the Lord's Work in accordance with Hir Will. God must see that I am not baulked by .' he also says to take care that [SHe doesn't] overhear you; [SHe] might mistake it for Hybris [sic, likely 'hubris'], or presumption. Do it all in the Sign of Silence, under the aegis of Harpocrates, the "Lord of Defense and Protection"; be careful to assume his God-form, as standing on two crocodiles.... he then recommends proceeding *as if* the prescribed/needed resource will be sent from heaven, without thought or deed of failure. he recommends the following guidelines: If you perform this "Act of Truth" properly, with *genuine* conviction that nothing can go wrong, your messenger will arrive a day early [in the example of waiting on a sure-to-be-late messenger with needed supplies] and bring an extra large supply. This, let me say at once, is very difficult, especially at first, until one has gained confidence in the efficacy of the Formula; and it is very nastily easy to "fake." Going through the motions (as they say) is more futile here than in most cases, and the results of messing it up are commonly disastrous.... 1. The proposed Act must be *absurd*; it won't do at all if by some fluke, however unlikely, it might accomplish your aim. For instance, it's no use backing an outsider. There must be no causal link. 2. The Act must be one which makes the situation definitely worse. E.g.: suppose you are counting on a new dress to make a hit at a Reception, and doubt whether it is so much better than your present best, or whether it will be finished on time. Then, wear that present best to-night (wet, of course) knowing you are sure to soil it. 3. Obviously, all the usual conditions of a Magical Operation apply in this as in all cases: your aim must conform with your True Will, and all that; but there is one curious point about an Act of Truth: this, that one should resort to it only when there is no other method possible.... P.S. I thought it might help you if I were to make a few experiments. I have done so. Result: this is much more difficult and delicate an affair than I had thought when I wrote this letter. For instance, one single thought of a "second string" -- e.g. "if it fails, I had better do so and so" -- is enough to kill the whole operation stone dead. Of course, I am totally out of practice; but, even so... ---------------------------------------------------------- _Magick Without Tears_, by Aleister Crowley, ed. Regardie, Falcon Press, 1989; pp. 153-4. __________________________________________________________ #Does anyone thinks these two opposites can be fused together somehow ? only if the affirmation of belief were somehow worked into the rite itself, such as in a catechism or repetition of some Creed, though I think this would limit severely the operations available to those mystical (something with which Crowley would have agreed strongly, seeing that his was a focus on the Knowledge and Conversation with the Holy Spirit by my interpretation). additional discussion/comment welcomed from any forum. and may peace also be with you, nocTifer tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com