From news.scruz.net!kudo20!tyagi Sat May 3 11:12:01 1997 Path: news.scruz.net!kudo20!tyagi From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage Subject: TMaroney: Crowley-Thelema FAQ Date: 3 May 1997 03:46:23 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 56 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: Reply-To: maroney@apple.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.227.52.9 Xref: news.scruz.net alt.magick.tyagi:10982 alt.magick:95246 talk.religion.misc:266792 talk.religion.newage:65196 [from thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org: Tim Maroney ] >Do any of those who support the concept that the movement/ >philosophy/way-of-life called 'Thelema' pre-existed Crowley >actually think that we, any of us, would be *here* today, >on *this* list, discussing *this* topic? I think a lot of people who think they're arguing about the same thing are actually arguing about quite different things. Does there exist a movement or tradition called Thelema started by Aleister Crowley? Obviously. Are we concerned with that kind of "Thelema" here? Yes. Are we concerned with other kinds as well? Sure -- it would be strange not to be interested in the ancestors of a movement if one is interested in the movement. Does Crowley's Thelema own the terms Thelemite and Thelema? No, they both predate him and his movement. He elaborated on established senses of the words; he did not invent them. Do you have to agree with Crowley on everything to be a Thelemite? Of course not. Do you have to agree with Crowley on certain key points of doctrine to be a Thelemite? No, since the term doesn't depend on Crowley and there were Thelemites before he formulated his system. All right, do you have to agree with Crowley on key points of doctrine to be a part of Crowley's Thelema? That depends on what it means to be part of a movement or tradition, which is a semantic question, leading to sub-questions: Is the question about social involvement, formal membership in an organization, or personal concern about the movement? If so, then the answer is that you can be part of the movement in all those ways without agreeing with Crowley on key points of doctrine. If Thelema is about having certain qualities of character, then obviously you can have those qualities without ever having encountered the movement. If the question is whether you are a "real Thelemite" without doctrinal agreement, that is less a question than an attempt to assert social control and mandate uniformity, which runs counter to both the Rabelaisian and Crowleyan interpretations. I would add that Crowley rarely agreed with himself on key points of doctrine, being rather enamored of contradiction. Tim Maroney -- see http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html and call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!! ---- (emailed replies may be posted) ---- CC public replies to author ---- * * * Asphalta Cementia Metallica Polymera Coyote La Cucaracha Humana * * *