Path: Supernews!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.thelema,talk.religion.misc,alt.consciousness.mysticism,talk.philosophy.misc Subject: Magick and Gods Date: 18 Jun 1997 11:29:48 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 145 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5o99es$r3q@kudo20.kudonet.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews alt.magick.tyagi:12948 alt.magick:105570 alt.pagan.magick:4898 talk.religion.misc:298468 alt.consciousness.mysticism:11554 talk.philosophy.misc:82465 [Orig-To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org] 49970614 aa2 Hail Satan! E6 Bantik : #...I can't understand the fact that in Thelema, the GD, and many other #systems, one is instructed in the practise of divine magick but #separated from the divinities involved by a barrier of unfaith. admittedly I come from a queer corner, yet I had used Crowley to cut my teeth and I *never* got the idea that I should disbelieve in the gods. not that this kept me from doing so (:>), yet I was dished a healthy portion of scientific materialism in public schools and my parents did nothing to assist me in coming to terms with religion. moreover, I received from Crowley an inspiration *to* engage the gods, the skepticism of the honest scientific researcher attendant to the work. always I felt he was agnostic or ambiguous as to the 'actual existence' of these entities and not only did I respect him for it, I modeled my own intentional ambiguity after him. let gnosis show to the initiate what the rationalizations of logic will never disclose. #...I'm sure many of you are thinking of responding with that tired #"one-god-many-faces" argument; I have often hated it. this was in part why I have at times distanced myself from the Neopagan community, since the Wiccans from whom I obtained a different perspective on ceremonial magick (;>) seem quite taken by what I would call a 'homogenization of deities' on par with other monotheists. I have for many decades wanted to 'know' whether gods and such exist, and the only way I discovered that I could come to the truth of that question was to involve myself and see first- (or at least second-)hand. little did I know that my exploration of tarot would lead to a use of that tool for communication with my HGA/goddess (described at this URL: http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/Avidyana/Gnostik/l.augoeides.fn ) in a series of visions disclosing Her appearance to me. today I cannot say what a god, spirit, angel or whatever might be with precision, though I do not think that it is in all cases self-deception or chicanery. there is some process or ontological interaction which does occur, and those who have that experience can attest to its substance, even if they cannot prove its nature to the onlooker. that said, I have not yet come to any kind of knowledge of any "Creator", beyond some mystical experience of a Ground of Being (not even sure I have really experience that actually, though it seems more likely). the Judeochristian godhead's description seems to me enmeshed with symbolism and too often taken literally for my taste. I have more often understood what has been suggested elsewhere in this forum (of Crowley, I think): that 'the God' is best understood as 'the God (essence) of one's being'. #...This entire thread has ariesen from the dissatisfaction many people #are experiencing from the use of alien mythologies. alien to what? to terra? :> surely you mean to the resident culture, and yet what mythology *isn't* alien, as others have asked? I have once created a mythological system or three for role-playing games and its components I have described as 'Elven' in that they are not derived with intention from any particular historical culture in mind and engaged as actuations of sublime *activity* given description in mythology. facets of them I have occasionally utilized in order to understand certain phenomenon. friends have occasionally adopted portions for their personal mythos. was my creation 'alien' to them? if we are eclectics who take what we want from where we find it and adopt it to our needs, does it matter? #I felt the same way several years ago as many of you do now, when I #considered myself spiritually a Satanist while ritually dabbling with #Qabalistic divine magick. I couldn't reconcile the contradiction of hating #God the Creator and yet using his name as ritual glue. So I left behind #the whole damned system and started building my own from the ground up. that sounds a very valuable enterprise, all around. I have similar feelings and thus have avoided adopting the popular ritualism (which you call 'divine magick'). in fact my magical rites have rarely if ever included any sort of 'adoption of godforms' or 'channelling of gods' or whatever until I began to study with Wiccans and, occasionally, with Hermetics. this was to be excepted in unique dedication to worship (Kali) or serve (Satan) gods or spirits as I understand them (I'm unsure as yet for what Satan qualifies). previously my rites were always celebratory or mystical enterprises (self- exploration) or magical endeavors (consecration of tools or the use of these tools to effect change in conformity to my will). I was very cautious at first and have usually applied magical effort to assist myself in projects with which I was otherwise engaged, providing a kind of 'boost' or obtaining insight into the nature of my work. #...certain entitities, whom the "plug-and-play" magickal systems use as #nothing more than cardboard masks for tired old archangels, began to be #real for me. Over time, strangely and unexpectedly, I began to feel faith #growing in me. experience yields knowledge. of what this knowledge consists I am silent, being unable to decide amongst the possibilities as yet. perhaps you have obtained certainty. I have found the latter a hazard. #Now, applying the strategy of actively seeking out the divine and #praeternatural in the worlds around me, I'm for the first time gaining #direct experience of things that in the past I had only read about. And #it all makes more sense from the inside. excellent! well done! then if you are willing and able, perhaps you can (since you are so good with words) come to new and concise descriptions of the nature of these experiences, giving us your unique perspective on their substance and character. should you feel so inclined, I for one would very much like to see the result. you impress me as a very skeptical and yet enthusiastic mage who reflects clearly in words. #...if you're going to practise divine magick, then nurture some form of #faith. I intentionally avoided 'faith' in the sense of belief. I withheld my judgement, during ritual suspending my DISbelief for the purposes of careful attention without interference of bias. I suspect that more than this may prove detrimental to the work of some mages. I still don't find that my magick and my religion mix very well, though they are surely related at very important points. #Otherwise, leave the gods out of your rituals. They're tired of just #being metaphors. ARE they now? :> there is no part of your speech which is not of the gods? hehehe. poor, tired gods. perhaps they need a rest break. bah, play with the gods all you want, I say. pretend they are masks, personae, playthings and puppets if you prefer. someday, like that puppetmaster Gipetto, you may be in for a surprise! ;> E6/6/6 _______________________________________________________________________________ nigris (333) -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/ -- (emailed replies may be posted) ------- join the AMT syncretism!!! see http://www.abyss.com/tokus ---------- call: 408/2-666-SLUG!! "Sure, kid. It's the truth. Trust me. Where's your money?" - TShuler