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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333))
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.occult,alt.thelema,talk.religion.misc,alt.magick.order
Subject: Thelemite, CM, Ritual
Date: 28 Feb 1998 19:44:20 -0800
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49980101 aa2 Hail Satan!

dwtfyw
 
apparently Mogg:
# >I was interested in this idea of whether there are 
# >thelemites who know nothing about thelema. I do sometimes 
# >find it strange to hear thelemites minimising the 
# >importance of the practice of magick, seeing thelema as 
# >purely some sort of mental culture (we had a lecture about 
# >this at the symposium a while back). Although I agree that 
# >there definately are 'magi' about who know v little or 
# >nothing about magick, they just seem to do it. 

with all this I agree.


# >But thelema without the actual practice of ritual magick 
# >seems IMO to be missing the point.

"the point" being?  the difference between 'magick' and 'ritual
magick' is, as I read it, a tremendous one.  the latter is just
a particular method of achieving the former.  too often ritual
is presumed to be essential when even the prophet of the
Thelemic culture (AC) has as much as specified the contrary.


maat@IO.COM (Baphemetis Continuity):
# ...to say that a Thelemite who doesn't practice magick has 
# minimalized it to 'mental culture' may be somewhat off the mark.
#
# ...(for the purpose of this discussion, when I use the word 
# Thelemite, I'm talking about an acknowledged, self aware 
# Thelemite who considers themselves such)....

thanks for making this clear.


# I've also met the armchair variety that would indeed fall into 
# the catagory of those involved in a strictly Ruachian deal.  

please explain this more concisely, as I have little understanding
of what 'a strictly Ruachian deal' includes.  being the king of 
the Armchair Magicians, I should probably get a handle on its
more subtle elements.

 
# ...I do see a strong, populated catagory of Thelemic mystics who
# aren't particularly interested in CM per se, who instead choose to
# practice yoga or other disciplines a la the A.A. curriculum (as
# published).  What of them?  They are practitioners - but not CMs.

it all depends on the nature of assessment where 'Thelemite' is
concerned.  by the definition you stated above, personal practice 
is irrelevant to whether someone qualifies.  it quickly becomes a 
kind of club where someone who defines the term so that they can 
qualify ipso facto becomes a member.


# ...Liber Resh [is] a devotion, and *can* be a ritual or 
# incorporated as part of a ritual.  If the ritual consists 
# of simply uttering the devotional at the proper moment - 
# does this fall into the catagory of CM?  

now we are left to come up with a definition for 'CM' (which
is here intended as abbreviated 'Ceremonial Magick').  I will
presume that you provide this as a rough comparable to
'ritual magick', though I do not always think this 
equivalence is valuable or warranted.

using my preferred definitions, 'Resh', inclusive of all the
variety alloted to this solar rite, may or may not be
'ceremonial' and may or may not become 'ritualized'.  I'd
suggest that a recipe or liturgical format is required for
qualification of 'ceremony' while either dramatic or 
repeated performances are required for 'ritual' observance.
one could easily engage a shallow and one-time acknowledgement
of solar influence and placement (the most expansive meaning
for 'Resh') for which neither 'ceremonial' nor 'ritual' would
apply, though this would probably be unusual.


# Is it a Thelemic practice?  Absolutely. 

described as such?  probably true.  'Resh', aside from being
a hebrew letter, and particularly applied in conjunction with
solar observance, probably obtains this connection solely
within Crowleyan and therefore 'Thelemic' culture.  I'd be
interested in hearing information to the contrary.

 
# ...individual who regularly attends the Gnostic Mass (a 
# participatory ritual) and perhaps is even a member of the Church.

btw, there are many Gnostic Masses, many churches which put
this rite on, though it is obvious in context what you mean.


# They are participating in CM - but are they practicing?  

are they?  I don't think participation in the EGC (or variant
Crowleyan) Gnostic Mass is necessarily an indication that a
person is practicing magick of any sort, regardless of whether
they are encountering a ceremony or ritual.


# And should they be?

I leave this question to the individual.


# Is it an automatic aspiration - to be an Officer, for 
# instance, instead of a participant member of the People?  
# Is one 'more of a Thelemite' than the other?  Or does the 
# indication of their Will simply differ?

one's social position is typically predisposed by one's
true will and/or conditioning that may obscure this.
it is for this reason that I contend that the 'Thelemic'
culture is better seen as *supporting* the character and
emergence of Thelemites rather than *containing* them.  
very often religious lose sight of the qualities 
associated with the ideal label and forfeit it for the 
coffee clatch network.


# Once someone chooses to become a Thelemic *initiate* of 
# some variety, do the rules change?  Does initiation into 
# a Thelemic Order indicate an aspiration to become a 
# practitioner of CM - or does it indicate that one is on 
# a quest to have K&C with their HGA - or does it indicate 
# that they've paid their money and they're takin' their 
# chances?

the motivations are too variable for participation in such
rites to generalize beyond (hopefully) the latter explanation.

 
# ...I'm asking more questions than [nigris] on a roll....

I'm exemplifying the type of response I prefer to such a roll.


# ...I humbly submit that [the variety in the manner that people
# within her local 'Thelemic' community engage activity] has a lot 
# to do with what they find when they get here.  

of course.  not only this, but the principles of Thelema as they
appear to filter into the ritual and religious culture associated
with this name seem to encourage diversity and independence, a
type of individualism that has inspired the Satanic and Chaos
communities greatly. 

in association with Crowley, his inclusive manner of describing
both magick and Thelema makes possible and encourages a
diversity of interpretation regarding both of these that brings
all manner of individual into the cult.

by virtue of their participation or membership I would not,
personally, consider them a 'Thelemite', but my preferences in
this regard stem from a specific interpretation of the Evul Book.


flrn

blessed beast!
nigris (333) 
-- 
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (emailed replies may be posted); 408/2-666-SLUG
http://www.abyss.com/tokus       FUCK       http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi