From thelema93-l-owner@www.hollyfeld.org Mon Nov 22 07:12:31 1999 Return-Path: thelema93-l-owner@www.hollyfeld.org Received: from www.hollyfeld.org (209-67-233-180.bst0.flashcom.net [209.67.233.180]) by prop.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10427 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 07:12:30 -0800 X-envelope-info: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA05359 for thelema93-l-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:20:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: www.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org using -f Received: from mail.fol.it (root@mail.fol.it [194.243.173.10]) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05342 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:20:12 -0500 Received: from d5b6n0 ([194.243.173.119]) by mail.fol.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA05734 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:08:26 +0100 Message-ID: <001501bf34fb$51c71360$77adf3c2@d5b6n0> From: "J.M. Kleemann" To: Subject: R: Social contracts and Thelema Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:58:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Status: RO Care, 93. I found your reflections very interesting; I would like just to add few ideas, although the whole topic is still rolling through my brain. >Ironically, it appears that the constitutional documents of the O.T.O. in >particular are made up of a combination of both types of social contracts, >where benefits are provided to members that match the Hobbes-requirement of >selfish benefit as well as Rousseau's protection of freedom. Hobbes, Rousseau (and Smith) provided concepts of power and authority that were influencial for western theories of society; Hobbes develloped an idea of power that were the authority of the state legitimated by collective consent, i.e. where a population agrees to be subjected to the power of the sovereign authority held by an elite minority. Functionalists have a similar position; another interesting theory is the "will"/"intention"- based concept of power of Weber, based upon "legal precept", "tradition" and "charismatic appeal". Indeed OTO rappresent a quite unique example of interaction of very different social approaches. >In looking at Crowley's vision for the O.T.O. as described in these >documents, it is apparent that there is an intentional mixing of the >Rousseau and Hobbes social contract concept; it is designed to appeal to a >wide range of individuals, and I must wonder whether this universal nature >will be retained now that the contract has been at least in part broken. I do think so, even if the debate is of course still open. There are some key- points that make the whole still perfectly working: 1- the Book of the Law, 2- a certain peculiar method of training precisely constructed by AC on point 1, develloped in three parts (again upon point 1), 3- a certain peculiar structure precisely constructed (again upon point 1) that is not affectable by the mentioned changes of the Policy regarding Liber 101 that's the reason why almost of the organizations that tries to copy OTO doesn't experience the same growth, but this is just one tiny tiny example). This 3 points comprises almost of the actually discovered and teached secrets (admittedly 99% still unknown to me, ha!) of OTO, as there's still stuff to be discovered ( exactly as some things were discovered after AC's death), partly or completely . I do realize that I provide but very few "proofs" and explanation, but unfortunately I will not debate this on a public forum. I once suggested you to get in touch personally with Officers/Initiatiors, in order to experience something which is hardly perceived in the early stages of MMM, not to mention the oral teachings & traditions that comes directly from Cefalu times. OTO is worthy not only for the IX°. For people interesred in the Social Contract Topic, here are some References: Hobbes, (1928) " Elements of Law",Cambridge; C.U. Press Hobbes, (1968) "Leviathan", London ; Penguin Rousseau (1973), "The Social Contract and Other Discourses", New York; Dent&Sons Weber (1968) "Economy & Society", New York; Bedminster Press 93, 93/93 Matthieu ____________...oooOOO---thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________ To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe" to thelema93-l-request@hollyfeld.org To unsubscribe your@email.com send "unsubscribe your@email.com" To unsubscribe from the digest send to thelema93-l-digest-request@hollyfeld.org http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/elists/thelema93-l.phtml