Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!miwok!well!pacbell.com!amdahl.com!toad.com!tim From: tim@toad.com (Tim Maroney) Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca,alt.magick Subject: Re: Wicca and History: A Few Questions Message-ID: <80858@toad.com> Date: 25 Dec 95 19:50:33 GMT References: Reply-To: tim@toad.com.UUCP (Tim Maroney) Organization: As Little As Possible Lines: 65 Xref: shell.portal.com alt.religion.wicca:19254 alt.magick:62430 inisglas@inisglas.seanet.com (inisglas) writes: >One of the folks present reminded us that the athame/chalice blessing looks >like a direct lifting of the Amrit ceremony from the Sikhs. It's a direct lifting of the Eucharist from the Crowley's Gnostic Mass, one of Gardner's documented sources (based on direct textual borrowing). The Gnostic Mass was inspired by a Russian Orthodox Mass, though obviously Crowley also drew on his knowledge of other Christian Eucharists. The theory of the Gnostic Mass's Eucharist is that a sexual sacrament of great antiquity was lifted by the Christians to be part of their Mass, and that the new EGC ritual would restore the sacrament to its earlier pagan meaning while framing it within the mythic context of the Thelemic trinity. Oddly, Gardner and Valiente seem never to have cracked the rather simple code that Crowley used to symbolize the sexual formula, since in Valiente's edits the formula is increasingly less evident. However, the Wiccan circle in its standard form remains a "symbolic Great Rite" just as the Gnostic Mass is a "symbolic IX". I have not yet been able to determine whether the Gardnerian Great Rite is isomorphic to the IX -- it seems possible that it is not, and that Gardner fused traditional legends of ribald behavior among witches with the vague intimations towards sexual sacramentalism that he would have received when he was a IV degree member of the Ordo Templi Orientis. I don't know much about the Sikhs. If there are direct evidences of Gardner borrowing from Sikhism the way there are direct evidences of borrowing from Crowley, then this would be well worth pursuing -- it often happens that in Gardner, what appears to be a simple borrowing from Crowley actually turns out to be a hybrid deriving from more than one source. The Rede, deriving from both Crowley and Pierre Louys, is a prime example. I would tend to think, though, that Sikhism as a hybrid of monotheism and Hinduism ultimately derived its Eucharistic practice from a Christian root, explaining any similarity between it and the Gardnerian ceremony by common derivation from the same ancestor. >As it turns out, >one of the other people at the brunch had lived in Singapore and Malaysia for >a number of years, and mentioned that someone like GBG would have had ample >exposure to the Sikhs, animistic Pagans, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, etc. in >the area for decades prior to his retirement and supposed introduction to the >Craft in 1939. True. However, this vague kind of exposure does not constitute a proof of source in the same way that, for instance, quoting _Aradia_ does. >The Canadian present mentioned the Social Credit party, and its founder, who >also established Woodcrafters, a magical pagan order present in Canada and the >New Forest in the 1920's. I'd like to hear more about this. >We also discussed the high probability that GBG knew the Clutterbuck family >prior to 1939, I'm not sure on what you are basing your estimate of probability. >and the reference or two to Witches in his book on the Keris, >which he published in 1936. That's a book I'd very much like to have. Any chance I could scam a photocopy from you? Thanks! -- Tim Maroney. Please CC all public responses to tim@toad.com. Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!pacbell.com!amdahl.com!toad.com!tim From: tim@toad.com (Tim Maroney) Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca,alt.magick Subject: Re: Wicca and History: A Few Questions Message-ID: <80860@toad.com> Date: 25 Dec 95 20:21:18 GMT References: <80858@toad.com> Reply-To: tim@toad.com.UUCP (Tim Maroney) Organization: As Little As Possible Lines: 10 Xref: shell.portal.com alt.religion.wicca:19255 alt.magick:62433 tim@toad.com.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >The theory of the Gnostic Mass's Eucharist is that a sexual >sacrament of great antiquity was lifted by the Christians to be part of >their Mass, Point of clarification: The above should not be read as an endorsement of Crowley's historical theory on this point, only as a statement of his position. In fact, I don't agree with his theory. -- Tim Maroney. Please CC all public responses to tim@toad.com.