Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3B4A088D.568F@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: XI degree OTO Questions (was: Re: Seeking Gay Magickal Men in Boston, MA References: <24Q17.21$Iu2.5166@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3B491E45.2AA1@luckymojo.com> <9icige$qci$1@wildfire.prairienet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 95 Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 19:32:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.137.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 994707149 209.204.137.196 (Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:32:29 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:32:29 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:252043 alt.magick.chaos:36273 alt.magick.goetia:857 alt.magick.serious:18149 alt.magick.tantra:18619 alt.magick.tyagi:27510 Riley Foster wrote: > "catherine yronwode" wrote: > > Did the O.T.O. really abandon the XIth degree ritual out > > of homophobia? Or did that degree "never realy exist," as > > some Thelemites have told me? > As a gay (former) member of the OTO, I think it was homophobia > & as for did it "ever exist" Aleister himself wrote that it did. > It sounds like Kenneth Grant squeamishness to deny it. This topic has been discussed before in usenet -- and since 1994, when i first got online, i have been asking about it myself. So far no serious respeonses have been forthcoming, and so i am asking again. (Note: My interest in this subject is based on a desire to know more about Croweyan sex-magick, not because i wish to join the OTO. My position with respect to homosexuality is that it is a natural human variation of gender orientation and should be supported both socially and within religious, fraternal, and hermetic orders. Insofar as the current leadership of the (c)OTO (Caliphate OTO, the jurisdiction with which i am most familiar) does not make its position on these matters known, it has become a subject of rumour and innuendo; hence my occasional airing of the topic.) Any and all answers to the any or all of the following questions by present or past OTO members of any jurisdiction and/or by non-OTO members who are Thelemites or Crowley scholars would be greatly appreiated: Did the original Swiss-based Reuss branch of the OTO initiate candidates in a homosexual XI degree ritual? Do or did any other OTO jurisdictions, contemporary or defunct (e.g. OTO-Antigua, etc.) initiate candidates in a homosexual XI degree ritual? Does the (c)OTO currently initiate candidates with a homosexual XI degree ritual? If the (c)OTO does not currently initiate candidates with a homosexual XI degree ritual, did it ever do so (e.g. when Grady McMurtry rather than William Breeze was head of the order)? If the (c)OTO did at one time initiate candidates with a homosexual XI degree ritual, and does not do so now, when was the ritual terminated and what reason was given for the termination? If the (c)OTO does not now and never did initiate candidates with a homosexual XI degree ritual, how do the group's oficial position papers explain Crowley's writing about this subject? In your OTO jurisdiction or others historically known to you is -- or was -- the Crowleyan XI homosexual ritual only performed by two men (in keeping with Crowley's interest in penile-centered and spermo-gnostic sex-magic) or could/can two women participate in the ritual? If two women can or could participate in an OTO homosexual XI degree ritual known to you, please explain how an all-female XI degree OTO ritual could be justified in light of Crowley's firmly stated belief that Co-Freemasonry (gender-integrated Masonry) is a sham because women "cannot" become third degree Freemasons because they have no penis? (For the record, since the male penis per se is not employed at all during the ritual of the making of a third degree Freemason, Crowley was a bit ill-advised on that one, in my humble oipinion, but that is another matter, of course.) Was Crowley's belief that the XI degree ritual representing homosexuality should be the *highest* degree of ceremonial sex magick shared by his OTO mentor Theodor Reuss or was this belief and/or the XI degree ritual itself something that Crowley originated once he joined Reuss' OTO? If you have any well-thought-out personal opinions as to why Crowley taught that the homosexual XI degree ritual is the *highest* degree of ceremonial sex magick, i would welcome them as well. Just be aware that previously-stated arguments that the ritual's value is based on the "transgressive" nature of homosexuality are going to be met with amused skepticism by me, as i cannot imagine that an openly and avowedly bisexual man such as Aleister Crowley would have found a homosexual ritual "transgressive." Cordially, cat yronwode The Esoteric Archive --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric.html Freemasonry for Women ------- http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/luckymojocatalogue.html Send e-mail with your street address to catalogue@luckymojo.com and receive our free 32 page catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets