This is the chat that ensued, and an email from Tani to both Peggy and Ygraine, after Ygraine had a fit that Tani showed Peggy the email and logs she wrote about Schlesinger and the entire story of her history with Paul Valentine and others. The email and logs of Ygraine showing her hatred for Schlesinger got posted on alt.satanism - after that Paul Valentine posted his take on it which appears below.
Narodnik is Tani
Session Start: Thu May 25 21:37:06 2000 [21:37] <Narodnik> what's up? [21:38] <Ygraine> Look, since you like to log and send private conversations I really no longer care to deal with you. As far as what I just said, I was making a joke about my age and the prevalence of early breeding in the South. [21:39] <Narodnik> Excuse me, but I told everyone I'd log the stuff, evidence per se, and give it to the proper person. You all agreed! [21:39] <Narodnik> As such, an op directive did come down. Whether or not they listen to it is another matter. [21:40] <Narodnik> It was cleearly understood that after all stuff was detailed, not just one or two instances, that Peter should be shown. That was up front; I said that from the go. [21:40] <Ygraine> No, you did not. Peggy even saw that i asked you to keep information in confidence, you agreed, and then sent it all to her. You are a liar and a bitch--there??? Still think I'll kiss ass and am an infection in the CoS due to being polite and respecting heirarchy? [21:40] <Narodnik> That is the only log I showed anyone! [21:41] <Narodnik> Confidence from other people. NOT from the people in cos in charge of handling that. Even Nagy agreed to it - gather evidence and give it to either Peter or Blanche! [21:41] <Narodnik> That was clearly understood. Why else gather it? [21:41] <Narodnik> What? Nemo's article about infection in cos has to do with the religionists. Not with chat. [21:42] <Narodnik> Not in confidence from PEGGY - or PETER. [21:42] <Ygraine> Not Nemo---someone else. Guess what, dearie, you aren't the only one who sends around private conversations....I have a few of yours, too, from "your friends". [21:42] <Ygraine> You used me to hurt a friend. [She means Peggy, Peggy was hurt.] [21:42] <Narodnik> You sure they are mine? I did not call you an infection - what are you talking about? [21:43] <Narodnik> What are you talking about? [21:43] <Narodnik> I gathered logs of kicks and other stuff, emails of trouble. THIS I sent to proper authorities. Why else gather it? Nagy at the time did not have ability to get logs tho he ALSO tried to do something. [21:44] <Narodnik> The only person I'm in long pm with is Mengele - and that's about science. That's about it. [21:44] <Narodnik> I'm rarely here. So what are you talking about? [21:46] <Ygraine> A certain letter you sent a mutual friend. You refered to me as an infection...who kisses ass and is polite. I'll wear that proudly. I've taken to signing letters "The Etiquette Infection". [21:46] <Narodnik> I have no idea what you are talking about. Or who. [21:46] <Narodnik> The "polite stuff was about Diane Vera - ages ago - it's old. That got brought up. [21:46] <Ygraine> Good, then maybe you won't betray them the way you did me. [21:46] <Narodnik> Instead of being blunt, they hedge around things. That's like insincerety. [21:47] <Narodnik> I have no idea what you are talking about Ygraine. [21:47] <Narodnik> I told them ALL - that I was gathering this stuff to give to someone would could DO something about it. [21:47] <Narodnik> Everyone knew this. Kelyeti even - his nick was stolen, all that. Gave it to Peter. [21:48] <Narodnik> Who else would I giveit to? Why else would I gather evidence of that stuff? [21:48] <Ygraine> Fine. Let's leave it at that. I am a loyal CoS member who will never contradict you publicly, but you fucked me over and although i am to blame for trusting you, I'll never give you that chance again. [21:48] <Narodnik> I don't care who disses who or messes with who in the real world. I'm not part of that at all. [21:48] <Ygraine> Evidence against ME? [21:49] <Narodnik> No no no. evidence of ops doing things to hurt the cos - what, you forgot? That's what this was about. The bad shit due to the chats and other stuff, like what happened to Kelyeti. [21:49] <Narodnik> What do you think that was about? I thought you knew. [21:49] <Narodnik> I SAID I'd show PETER! [21:49] <Narodnik> I have no idea what you are on about. OK? NONE. I sent those logs to Peter LAST MONTH! [21:50] <Narodnik> Every once in awhile, another person gets kicked for NO reason. One log here, another there. I send. [21:50] <Narodnik> They asked for evidence of it. I gave it. [21:50] <Ygraine> You are a lying bitch---even Peggy saw that you had agreed to keep the info to yourself and then sent it to her. [21:50] <Narodnik> What did you want me to do with this? I THOUGHT it was to fix situations. Everyone wanted that. [21:50] <Ygraine> Leave me the fuck alone, or I'll make some Tani trademark insane threats. [21:51] <Narodnik> Well, if you won't tell me hat you are talking about - fine. I have no idea what you are on about, or who got hurt. [21:52] <Narodnik> SIGH - to myself? Yes - BUT NOT FROM COS IN CHARGE. What, are you being daft here? What would I do with it? [21:52] <Ygraine> Oh it fixed it...it hurt people who did not need to be hurt and actually made Andre look good. Good job, sport!] [21:52] <Ygraine> I am gonna be the president of his fan club, now! [21:52] <Narodnik> Then they wanted to hurt good people and make Andre look good. [21:52] <Ygraine> um...maybe keep your word...or don't "your people" do that? [21:52] <Narodnik> I don't care about Andre - what don't you get. The man never did a THING to me. [21:52] <Ygraine> Peggy got hurt. I got hurt by knowing I hurt her. You damaged my relationship with her. [21:53] <Narodnik> Nothing can damage a relationshp if truths are told. Your logs were 1% of the shit. There were about 50 damned logs from MANY and oh yeah, they WANTED this shown to someone who could do something. [21:53] <Narodnik> If she wants to make excuses for bad behavior - I don't care. I reall no longer care - and didn't care all that much before. [21:54] <Narodnik> The majority of logs were other people. [21:54] <Narodnik> And also - most of it was emails - they wanted me to SHOW THIS to someone who could DO something. [21:54] <Narodnik> What the hell could I do with it? Save it? What for? [21:54] <Narodnik> It's gone. for the most part. [21:55] <Narodnik> It seems to me that Andre can do no wrong, no matter what he does. FINE! [21:55] <Narodnik> Hurt Peggy? Peggy GOT the stuff, she asked for proof - tho I did send it to PETER. [21:55] <Ygraine> Let me explain that other people don't mean fuck to me. All I care about is the people who I love. I made a horrible mistake telling you something in confidence. I will pay for it by being mis-trusted by someone who I genuinely love. Thanks. [21:55] <Ygraine> Proof of what, Tani? Of what she already knew? [21:56] <Narodnik> She has no reason to mistrust you if you told a truth. Ygraine, fact is anyone there at that time that saw this, knows it. [21:56] <Narodnik> Why are you going on about 1%. She got over 50 pieces of strong hard evidence of horrible doings, including stealling nicks - PROOF of it. [21:56] <Narodnik> Cos against COS I mean, she got hard proof of this. She wants to do nothing? [21:57] <Ygraine> and none of them matter to me except the one where you promised to keep something in confidence, and then sent it. [21:57] <Narodnik> She got proof of horrible attitude toward new members - she wrote an email to the ops here due to this. [21:57] <Narodnik> I think they ignored it. For awhile they didn't. [21:57] <Narodnik> Vad got the email too - and a suggestion to make a new chat. [21:57] <Narodnik> I think you saw it. [21:58] <Narodnik> She got proof of hackers planning to hack too - and that's serious shit. [21:58] <Ygraine> Good, it'll make it easier to avoid you. [21:58] <Narodnik> PROOF, Ygraine. [21:58] <Narodnik> Believe whom you wish to believe then. [21:59] <Ygraine> Goodnight, Magistra. Next time you want blood, look for some other sucker---oh, I'll always believe Peggy--but she'll prbably never believe me again. [21:59] <Narodnik> She got proof of hackers planning to hack - meanwhile they claim that people are their bosses? [21:59] <Ygraine> Suggestion---suck a dick now and then, it'll give you something else to do with your mouth. [21:59] <Narodnik> Truth sets a person free. I gave her 50 proofs - 1% were yours which she already knew but it only made what you had STRONGER with the other stuff - serious stuff. [22:00] <Narodnik> Then I imagine she no longer trusts 50 other people. All of whom have problems and showed proof. Session Close: Thu May 25 22:15:36 2000
Tani's Reply to her and Peggy
To: firstname.lastname@example.org Cc: email@example.com Subject: FOR THE RECORD MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Status: New X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0
[Refer to the logs below.] First of all, unbeknownst to you (or maybe WELL KNOWN to you, apparently it WAS well known after all!), EVERYONE was complaining about Andre and some others. Who got the earful? OH, I did and I assume because I was now online and viewed as some official in the COS. Whatever. So I told Peggy and Peter. Peggy said GET PROOF. I was getting that, and everyone gathering it and/or giving it to me KNEW THIS. They waited and waited and asked me: "When are you gonna tell Peter, when?" I needed proof. That was months prior to my even knowing what chat was. I told Jacqui I was gathering this - EVERYONE KNEW IT. I told Peggy I WOULD get it and make sure it was as thorough as possible.
[You are screaming upset that I showed Peggy your email and logs about the time you went to Barton with complaints against Schlessinger. Why?] What you told me was what Peggy already knew, it was OLD. So what is your problem then? What Vad and Ole told me [how Schlessinger tried to fuck with Prometheus Grotto and with Amina during the time she was doing wonderful work long prior to her involvement with Ole Wolf], Peggy already knew - that was also OLD and they had NO problem with it. But what the 50 other attachments along with the "old news" did was offer PROOF of a continuation of behavior - a person repeatedly starting shit with ANYONE who is SATANIC or who produces satanic things. Repeatedly. Non stop.
That is what Peggy ASKED FOR. You did NOT know this? Then why in hell would you go and tell me stuff that I couldn't care less about EXCEPT to collect and show Peter or Peggy? Why would you document it? I don't know ANY of the people involved or want to. I never TRIED to get to know any of them. This is SO well known in COS that I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU DID NOT know this. I have few friends in the COS and everyone knows this too - this is OLD knowledge. E.g., The only reason I even saw Valentine on Tv was because Peter sent me a tape. I'd NEVER have known who that was or seen him otherwise. THAT is how much I DO NOT CARE. OH, it's interesting to see Peter on TV. I wanted to see Peter. But Paul was in there anyway. Whatever. Paul Whatever Huh Valentine oh yeah, lips, cute lips, nice hair. Whatever. Did I ever write him? no. Did I ever try to know him? no. One BIG whatever.
[Your email and logs about Schlessinger were] confidential? Yes - but not kept from PETER! Aside from that, your stuff was one of the things that was OLD HAT, already known. SO? Surely not confidential from people that ALREADY KNEW IT? It served as a FOUNDATION to show "more of the same after your thing." Mag Nagy also wanted to gather evidence and had no way to do it, he had only java. So I said I'd send him AND Peter what I had when I got enough of it. I also found how he could GET mirc for his computer and he got it. That was fine. EVERYONE, even brand new COS members, or members awaiting their cards, KNEW I was gathering this for Peter and then for BOTH Peter and Jeff Nagy. And not just me gathering. OTHERS WERE GATHERING IT IN HEAPS and sending it to me since I wasn't in chat enough to do it. Everyone knew this. This was no campaign since I don't even KNOW the man. I.e., I have NOTHING against him - I'm not involved and am outside of ALL of it and all the people involved. OBJECTIVE - get it? You are the one, bumbling idiot, that imagined I had some "thing" against Andre. Why on earth would you think this when I don't even know him? Oh, because you were EMOTING and not thinking. Obviously, I knew NOTHING about these people - and that SHOULD have been 100% clear to you from my LACK OF KNOWLEDGE of any of these events. DUH. You are a DRAMA QUEEN.
I'll tell you what Peggy said to me: The COS is not about "who's chummy chummy with who." Uh huh. I know that. Was Peggy telling ME that? I don't think so. I already knew that. I already PRACTICE that: another well known fact. I'm not into the "girlfriend" bullshit. I'm a PERSON. Friends are friends. Mine are some of over 20 years duration and our friendship is NOT founded on hush hush drama or cliqueism. It's SOLID and founded on TOTAL openness and trust. Don't even go there, you don't know the meanings of those words in the inner sense and you PROVED it.
EVERYONE KNEW. Peggy wanted proof. I was getting it and I needed proof, not hearsay, but PROOF.
So WHAT is your fucking problem - a drama that merits the SHIT you wrote me in PM? AH - "sincerely Ygraine," - FINALLY, the real Ygraine, sincere, blunt, speaking what you want to REALLY say. Ygraine the VICTIM, the DOORMAT. YOU go suck on something - that's YOUR bag, not mine. How dare you bitch at me for NOTHING. Perpetual drama victim.
Unbeknownst to you, YOU who had the stupidity to imagine I had some campaign against a TOTAL STRANGER, I have NOTHING against Andre because: key fact - he never did anything TO ME. Not ever. Key fact number two: I DO NOT KNOW HIM! That is and was obvious to EVERYONE. I didn't even know he was on TV until much later. I knew NOTHING about him.
You can feel free to be the DOORMAT and "turn the other cheek" with people you wanted to sue once. You can feel free to take trips to go to a party and then SUBMIT and GROVEL when told NOT to show up. You can feel free to turn the other cheek when you are WALKED ON and insulted so badly you were "rendered speechless" (I find that hard to believe: do you ALWAYS lie? what, you could NOT muster up the balls to tell Andre to go suck a dick, eh Ygraine?) - and then you can PRETEND you are "above all that" like a good little trained xian puppy. You can pretend you are "over it" while you BITCH about it in minute detail. Sure. I know of NO Satanist that would stand OR SIT for that kind of treatment. You are a PHONY.
I gathered the proof Peggy wanted, Nagy wanted, EVERYONE wanted and helped to provide. You and Ole only provided 1% of it, things that were already well known to Peggy but which provided a FOUNDATION to show a history of similar treatment on the part of some COS people. I kept it confidential as far as what I thought everyone meant: lay members, non members, the ng crowd. I had heard about it - but again - nothing like this was EVER done to me. I have nothing against Andre. Key fact: he never did a thing TO ME. Key fact: I do not know him.
This is the SECOND TIME you imagined (and you say your HUSBAND was bipolar? You sure YOU aren't?) that a comment about in general SHIT going on that Peter and Peggy should have LEARNED ABOUT LONG AGO having been thru it with Diane Vera, learned about all that MASKish polite etiquette bullshit, the INSINCERE hush hush, the altering of "history" to suit some stupid party line. YES, this is an infection getting into the COS just like the GODism is an infection that repeatedly slips in. You IMAGINE this was directed at you? That's referential ideation. It is an IN GENERAL FACT that this is happening and it's NOT GOOD. This kind of overly polite STILTED talk - NO ONE speaks from the heart like that - NO ONE.
OPEN BLUNT TO THE POINT SINCERITY is the only way to go and they should have long ago KNOWN this. (You should NOT have to get into a RAGE to speak from your heart - unless you are a properly trained xian, BROKEN at your root) OPENNESS, no secrets, no hush hush. THAT is the ONLY WAY to be strong. The rest is a facade. It is a SEA OF LIES. I do not LIVE in a sea of lies - not anyone's, not COS's, not anyone's.
How many times must they hear that XIANITY IS a sea of lies? Oh, now is COS going to become this?
What the hell did you think I was DOING with all this drama, logs, emails? Reading it? You think I'm interested in it? I scanned it to see if it was "good for proof" for Peggy. What the hell ELSE could I do with it? Had I wanted to know ANY of you closely after all these years, I'd have known you. DUH. I already know who I want to know closely.
You ask me if you can PM (private message) me and for what, - to say THIS SHIT? And then what, you DONT want to chat with me (so don't! I'm hardly there and when I am I'm normally in pm with MENGELE with whom I have 100% a lot in common). You DON'T want to chat with me for fear I'll send your logs where - to Peggy? So I'll send THIS log to Peggy then. How's that. Why else would you bother to go to the trouble to PM me and say this shit?
You are a gossipy big mouth and a two face. You are so typically Wiccan with your LOVE of hierarchy and someone to think for you - some book to guide you. I'm a Satanist - guess you don't like Satanists. I have NO book, no god, no boss of me. NO ONE is my boss unless I volunteer for them to PAY ME on a job. I merely DID what I SAID I WOULD DO because I had the TIME to do it (then, not now - I'm too busy going out these days and have LESS time). I kept it confidential - like it's not on the god damned newsgroup - but WHO did you think I was collecting this for? MYSELF? Common sense SHOULD have told you I have NO vested interest in any of this shit for myself. Oh please. FOR PEGGY. WHO do you think wanted proof? ME? For what? PEGGY WANTED PROOF. And FOR THE RECORD, I sent it to PETER GILMORE AND JEFF NAGY as promised. It seemed to me that no matter what Peggy saw, there was always some excuse for it. Sure, the people that are pissing everyone off are very good at hiding their tracks. Now: do I care? NO. I don't care. It is NO loss to ME.
It is NOT my problem and it's not going to BE my problem. The Black House is not MY house - not my problem. The chat room chasing potential members away and turning off the new is NOT my problem. I'm not losing anything if this happens. It's not personal to me at all: OH BUT IT SURELY IS TO YOU and you made that clear.
Vincent Crowley hanging out with a what Gilmore claims is a lunatic girlfriend that tells Egan EVERYTHING is not my problem.
Egan and Andre wailing about kiddie sex and animal sex is NOT my problem. The really powerful Christian Forum which has real clout says 10 times worse about satanists: that IS a problem but no one pays attention to it. Not my problem.
I chat openly in open channel about ANYTHING, I don't give a shit who sees it either. The ONLY time I use PM is like with Mengele, we are chatting about things that NO ONE will understand and which will clutter up the chat room and highly distract others. On those occasions I don't even see the chat room since my screen is completely filled with the pm screen and nothing else. Sometimes I even log out of the room and stay only in pm if I remember to do that. That's MY idea of PM.
I do not believe it is POSSIBLE that you did NOT know I was collecting tons of chat and email for proof of all this. Why ELSE would you tell me all that? For who, for ME? For my health or interest? For fun? EVERYONE knew it because everyone GOT ME TO DO IT. They all, JUST LIKE YOU, told me their stories, asked me to keep it confidential but it was UNDERSTOOD if not outright stated, that when I got enough I'd show it to someone who COULD DO something about it since I can't. I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to do something about it. I explained that I CAN NOT DO anything about it, but would pass it all onto who COULD do something.
So, you say that everyone came up looking bad but Andre came up looking good? He kicks people for NO reason, repeatedly and constantly and it's not even his room. They have the proof. Of that and a HELL of a lot worse - dangerously worse stuff.
The only campaign I have is enjoyment for self. That's IT, Ygraine. I have no cause, I'm no martyr. I have no book, no boss. No god. No goddess. None of that. Above all I have NO religion. That's what a Satanist is. Guess you don't like that. Fine with me.
Don't you EVER THREATEN me again with some rubbish about "Tani death threat" since I never posted one save for self defense against those that threatened me: and at that, I got those bastards in real life LEGALLY - unlike you who threatened and then laid down like a dog and made all huggy huggy with people who just got done calling you a slut. Good little turn the other cheek Ygraine. Drama Queen, the ENDURING victim. SO forgiving. Satanists say: NEVER forget and NEVER forgive.
Now: I have done NOTHING to you. If whatever ["friendship"] you had with Peggy was founded on a foundation of insincerity or pretense: then you had NOTHING. And you will note I'm NOT afraid to say this to BOTH of you at the same time. That's the way to go: get it ALL out up front. It's the only way to have a STRONG anything. TOTAL sincerity. Anything else is POISON.
Here is the chat log you had with me that you did NOT want to have with me for "fear" I'd show Peggy. HUH? Of course, you probably showed her this yourself with another hysterically emotional fantasy about how I, a total stranger to all parties involved, have a campaign. HUH?
Paul Valentine's take: Ygraine's email about Andre and her logs had been posted by the time Paul Valentine posted this to alt.satanism:
First the original post:
Message-ID: <39B1694C.4A6949A3@snet.net> From: Paul Douglas Valentine <firstname.lastname@example.org> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.satanism Subject: Ygraine & Billy Gidney Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 505 Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:55:52 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 184.108.40.206 X-Complaints-To: email@example.com X-Trace: typhoon.snet.net 967942401 220.127.116.11 (Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:53:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:53:21 EDT Organization: SNET Internet
Paul: The following exchange between the certifiably insane Gidneys and yours truly began in 1996. Ygraine thought I'd lied about hearing the hummiliating excommunication letter Blanche and dead ol' Howard sent her joke of a husband was on the web. At the time they were new initiates to the Temple of Set. Since then the ToS saw fit to boot Billy, Ygraine followed, and now they are once again blowing anyone claiming to be within the hierarchy of the legally dissolved CoS.
This was included in issue #2 of my newsletter ZEPHYR. Their response will be posted later.
Paul Douglas Valentine
Paul: The next letter is one of the best examples of what happens when brown nosing supersedes virtue. It is reprinted exactly as it was written, including typographic and grammatical errors.
Letter from Ygraine:
To begin. . .
A short while ago I got off the phone with you, a short time later William spoke with Peggy Nadramia. You, I am sure, can imagine the discrepancies between your story about the "Ex-Com letter", and hers.
William feels that Peggy told him the truth, and he also feels that her explanation for your starting such a story is accurate. She says that when you heard that Peter and I got along OK in Denver, it must have rankled you. Although she is ostensibly unaware of it, William also feels that by telling you we'd joined the Temple of Set, we had perhaps given you even more need for gossip hounding.
I'm sad Paul. I'm sad and confused. I've never deluded myself into thinking you were the most honest person in the world. I'm sure you will agree that your ability to fabricate is legendary. I just never thought that you'd take aim at me and the one I love. I don't know why I thought I'd be immune, but I did, and now I feel quite foolish.
Personally, after the whole COS thing, after that venomous letter, and the pain that it caused, I was happy to believe any rumor, factoid, or slander about COS people. It was (and in many ways still is) my opinion that they treated a young, sincere, perhaps over zealous man with less respect than one would a rabid dog. William Gidney was the truest, proudest, most enamored Satanist that ever walked the earth. He though Anton LaVey was the most brilliant, human on the planet. He'd have gladly and without reservation taken a bullet for LaVey. And when they attacked him, they attacked his very raison d'etre. A weaker, less noble man would have crawled under a rock. Willian, a true traveler of the LHP , did not. He adapted and overcame, and his legacy WILL NOT, over my dead body, be the man who was excomunicated from the COS! His dignity has been restored, his reputation, once again, impeccable, his loyalty to TOS irrevocable. In short, it may have taken years, but he is no longer the dog that the COS can kick.
But Paul, if what Peggy is saying is true, you brought back all those intensely painful memories back to the surface. You stated/implied that this letter was all over the internet, making William believe that even people who had never heard of his impressive work with law-enforcement, or or his unyielding devotion to the FOC, or just what a fabulous ceremonial magician he is, would no know the one thing that causes him pain and embarrassment. That is cruel. It is loathsome, and it is without regard to honor. I do not deal with or associate with those who have no sense of honor. 'Call me a Klingon (although, knowing you, after this letter you'll probably call me considerably worse). It is my fervent belief that religion, philosophy, lifestyles notwithstanding, the primary difference between those in Christianity and ourselves is that they have no honor.
So now, you must asking why I would believe the very animals who bit, over you.
1. William talked to Peggy, who, IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY SEEN THE EX-COM LETTER, wrote this pernicious piece of oak-tag. He had EVERY reason to assume she'd lie, and yet, he felt she was completely honest.
2. Does a boy named Peter who had little problem with wolves ring any bells?
3. Because, and if this causes you pain, I am sorry BUT you are vapid, vain, and insecure, and your pathology indicates that the very notion of people getting along, especially without your input (read: interference) terrifies you.
That said, I want to give you my impression of Peter, Peggy, Blanche, et al. . .My opinion is unchanged with the exception of the fact that, at least face to face, and over the telephone they have maturity and dignity to behave like adults, and see that in certain situations it is wiser to stand together than apart (ie. talk shows, etc...)
I am a woman whose memory is long. I will never forgive what they did to William. I found them to be crudely cruel and sanctimoniously arrogant. However, even I share some blame. LaVey told me personally to look out for William, and I should have understood what he meant. Like other cannibalistic tribes, the COS will eat it's own. He warned me, and like a fool I thought what had worked for me would work for William. I was wrong. I should have tempered his zeal with a few platitudes, I should have told him he was going too far, but then I was not a Satanist and had little knowledge of what was and wasn't appropriate. Moreover, like the hundreds who heard and read him, I was too inspired by William to ever suggest modification.
Yet, when they smashed his dreams and hopes to the ground, when they took from him his major source of inspiration that had kept him alive through undeniably tragic times, I watched him grow to something twice as impressive, and ever more inspiring. Bottom line: they did him a favor.
Then here comes petty Paul, throwing scraps of rancid meat over the fence at the dog pound. . .waiting to see who will bite first. Well Paul, not me. I may not like what Peter and Peggy did to William, and I would not be their best pick in searching for an organ donor, but I WILL ATTACK NO ONE JUST TO GIVE YOU PLEASURE. When retribution time comes, and in many ways it already has, the blood I spill (and naturally I mean this figuratively so don't start any bullshit aout blood sacrifices or other silliness) will be for ME. Period.
Paul you are an intelligent, gentle, man, who has an unfortunate psychological problem. It would be far better for you, not to mention the rest of us, if you would attend to it. This lying about everything shit has got to get old! I say this because I was your friend. You are not, or perhaps by now, were not, so insignificant that you needed elaborate ruses, complicated background stories, or just out and out falsehoods. It is, in fact, pitiful.
And now Paul, for the crux of all the cc;'s.15 l shall not allow you to use me, my family, or my relationship with the TOS to get entertainment. I feel, due to your past, that it is necessary to cover my own ass.16 I don't want you snipping, inserting, editting or quoting any part of this letter and the only way to guarantee that you can't is to send to all the people you might feel inclined to misinform, a copy. This causes me no joy, and a small amount of embarrassment.
Since you've mentioned that you are considering leaving Amanda at the Helm of the WCSL, and joining TOS, I want to assure you that if Magistra Reynolds and Ipsissimus Aquino deem that appropriate, I will gladly and happily welcome you as a fellow traveler on the LHP. I have nothing BUT respect for the Temple and it's members. You, naturally, would be included. However I must say, that when you told me this, and then said you had no intention of becoming an Adept II°, but just wanted to check it out, and get ". . . all the cool stuff," I was quite indignant. I am not doubting your respect for Dr. Aquino, that is not my place, but I have to doubt your understanding about TOS. It is NOT the COS. It is not the FOC. It is the most advanced, most inspiring, most sincere occult society that has ever existed. I don't just believe that, nor am I saying that to get brownie points with the folks I've sent copies to. I'm saying that because after 15 years in this occult crap, I speak from an informed position. More importantly is that unlike every other group/sect/church blah blah blah, I can and DO utilize Temple teachings DAILY, and they work, and it helps me Work. For this reason it is not something to do for shits and giggles. Insincerity will get you nowhere. Even today you joked about the "over use" of self-improvement. While your unfamiliarity of this Setian17 concept is obvious, it is not just a part of our philosophy: Becoming is the very essence of TOS teachings. It isn't a fucking joke, Paul!
I beg you, as one last gesture of friendship, to make that choice with complete self honesty. It might (Temple membership) do you a world of good, it certainly has done so for me...but truthfully Paul, I;ve never gotten off on starting trouble. Hell, I'll dish it out with the best of 'em, but I won't light matches in an arms depot. Please, Paul, do what thou wilt, but do it with self understanding, and humane compassion.
It is with regret that I close this letter with little hope of a solution. You poured salt on a deep wound Paul...now do us, and yourself, the honor of letting it all heal.
Brighter than the sun, the Darkness Shines, Ygraine
To which I replied:
I could say your letter has caught me off guard and I'm dumbfounded by it, but I'd be lying. I will explain why in a bit though first I'd like to show my deep appreciation for something you've done.
Since moving into our apartment I've been bitching and moaning each time I whacked my 6'4" high head into the 6' doorjambs. I swore we'd be moving soon or I'd take a damn buzzsaw to the woodwork. Still, being the somewhat lazy cuss I am, the thought of packing up and moving several hundred books, etc. twice in less than a month, well...I was willing to put up with the dangers of living in a Lilliputian abode. Then came your letter. Whether or not it was done intentionally, you passed our home address on to individuals whom I'd rather not have it. And no, I'm not referring to Dr. and Mrs. Aquino.
Guess what? We're moving! And I have you to thank for it. No more near concussions. No more waking up on the floor with my evil-breathed dog licking my face. I knew I loved you, you quivering mound of love pudding, you!
Now then. . .
Just what the heck are you talking about? No offense, Gabby, but I showed your letter to a friend who's a clinical psychologist and she said "Problems. Lots of them. Not the least of which being an apparent pathological need for acceptance." I beg to differ, however. What you wrote and the fact you made sure Peter, Peggy, the Grand Gargoyle, and Dr. and Mrs. Aquino received copies of it shows shrewd intent. Obviously, you and Bill feel I have absolutely nothing left to offer so I'm the logical bridge to burn. Still, I expected a bit more maturity from the two of you but, hey, it wasn't me who had the temerity to walk down the streets of a small, conservative community wearing a placard reading "The Cross Equals Death", and then whine because you were run out of town.
Anyway, as tedious as this is for me, I shall set for my objections point by point after each of your bogus accusations. Here goes:
1. William feels that Peggy told him the truth, and he also feels that her explanation for your starting such a story is probably accurate. She says that when you heard that Peter and I got along OK in Denver, it must have rankled you.
First off, the fact that Bill would believe anything Peggy says to him after all he's experienced at hers/Peter's hands is beyond comprehension. It is obviously something which he and his therapist must work out.
I'm rankled that you and Peter "got along" in Denver? You claim to have a long memory, yet you don't seem to recall much of what was actually said in our three telephone conversations. It is a fact I will call upon later as well, but now I'll focus on one particular item of fallacy. I don't give a rat's patoot whether or not you and Peter got along. In fact, (pay attention here, you'll be tested later) the only negative thing I said was that you were dopey for delivering him and Retch a fruit basket (though in a way, it was appropriate considering who received it). Here was a man who was directly responsible for all the crap you and Bill went through, and you send him a peace offering! It boggles the rational mind.
2. Although she is ostensibly unaware of it, William also feels that by telling you that we'd joined the Temple of Set, we had perhaps given you even more need for gossip-hounding.
I've been called some fairly stupid things but gossip hound has to be one of the most ridiculous. Other than my wrongful attack on Dr. Aquino back when I idiotically thought information from Peter Gilmore was factual, I have NEVER said anything about others or their organizations without a firm foundation in the truth. Gossip is for those without enough in their lives to spend their hours productively. Finally, I've been on the receiving end of rumours, gossip and generally nasty innuendo for years. It ain't fun, babe, and trust me when I say I don't wish that on anyone.
3. I've never deluded myself into thinking you were the most honest person in the world. I'm sure you will agree that your ability to fabricate is legendary.
Uhhh...okay. Apparently another one of the many assumptions leveled at me over the years with no connection to reality. Indeed I did inflate the number of children I've sired when I first hit the talk show circuit back in the '80's, but that was nearly ten years ago, sweetie, and everyone has a right to make mistakes and then atone for them. Also, it's been common knowledge for seven years. Did you see my April 3rd appearance on Geraldo?
So, are there other instances you'd like to illustrate? If not, remember that unfounded, spiteful accusations are not only harmful but capricious.
4. He (William) thought Anton LaVey was the most brilliant human on the planet. He'd have gladly and without reservation taken a bullet for LaVey. And when they attacked him, they attacked his very raison d'etre.
That's scary. Really, really scary.
5. You stated/implied that this letter is all over the internet. . .
I did absolutely nothing of the sort. I simply said my daughter was contacted by a girl via e-mail who claimed to have downloaded (from a never identified source) a letter from the Church of Satan telling Bill to take a hike. Due to the fact the girl used a pseudonym we haven't a clue as to who she is and what affiliations she may or may not have. When the letter actually was received, it was sent to Amanda's CompuServe account.
After doing the most thorough search of the Net technologically possible, our Web expert Michael Tranor found nothing. That's not to say it wasn't nested on some private web page (like the WCSL's, Ms. Nadramia) or BBS.
6. I do not deal with or associate with those who have no sense of honor.
Then you should truly loath yourself.
7. It is my fervent belief that religion, philosophy, lifestyles notwithstanding, the primary difference between those in Christianity and ourselves is that they have no honor.
That you can make such a statement shows not only an intentional denial of the facts, but a complete lack of responsibility. Despite our obvious spiritual differences, one of my dearest friends is a traditionalist Catholic priest and former Trappist monk. No one on Earth has more honour, integrity and respect than this man.
8. William talked to Peggy, who, IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY SEEN THE EX-COM LETTER, wrote this pernicious piece of oak-tag.
You really do have a hard time with retention, don't you? And I don't mean water.
Before Amanda received the letter I said that I had no desire to know what was in it and would not read it if given the chance. As you know (and thanked us for), Amanda read it once then deleted it.
9. He had EVERY reason to assume she'd lie, and yet, he felt she was completely honest.
As I said at the beginning of this letter, Bill's need to believe those he allowed to rape his fragile psyche is between him and his therapist. It hardly suggests stability.
10. Does a boy named Peter who had a little problem with wolves ring any bells? Indeed. He lives on 10th Avenue in New York City in a reeking tenement without a bathtub or even a shower. Why do you ask?
11. I am sorry, BUT you are vapid, vain, and insecure, and your pathology indicates that the very notion of people getting along, especially without your input (read: interference) terrifies you. One of the synonyms for vapid is absentminded, and in that context you are correct. Vain? Absolutely. That's why, unlike the Gilmores, I don't live in a reeking tenement without a bathtub or even a shower. Insecure? You really do not know me, do you? And so far as the pathology nonsense is concerned, Freud (Sigmund, not Anna) had a term that seems to fit you quite nicely: projectionism. Look it up, you'll find it interesting.
12. That said, I want to give you my impression of Peter, Peggy, Blanche, et al. . . My opinion is unchanged with the exception of the fact that, at least face to face, and over the telephone they have maturity and dignity to behave like adults, and see that in certain situations it is wiser to stand together than apart (i.e. talk shows, etc. . .) No-ooo, your stay in Denver with Peter and Retch shows how gutless you are in face to face encounters. Here you are with the very people responsible for Bill's total humiliation, individuals you have a very legitimate gripe with, and instead of venting your spleen on them you decide to come after me. It's clear you don't see the danger in sleeping with the enemy.
It's sad to have to spell this out to you, Gabby, but these mature and dignified folk couldn't care less if you and Bill live or die. Siding with them for any reason, especially one so lame as public civility, is playing right into their hands.
13. Then here comes petty Paul, throwing scraps of rancid meat over the fence at the dog pound. . .waiting to see who will bite first.
Already quoting the Temple of Set, eh? I know why you like joining organizations; it saves you from having to come up with original thoughts.
14. Paul, you are an intelligent, gentle, man, who has an unfortunate psychological problem. It would be far better for you, not to mention the rest of us, if you would attend to it.. This lying about shit has got to get old! I say this because I was your friend. You are not, or perhaps by now, were not, so insignificant that you needed elaborate ruses, complicated background stories, or just out and out falsehoods. It is, in fact, pitiful.
What's pitiful is your all-consuming jealousy which dictates you assume those of us living considerably better lives than yours are liars, frauds, or psychologically deficient. I'm sorry for your current station in life but it's not my fault. Deal with it.
15. And now Paul, for the crux of all the cc;s. I shall not allow you to use me, my family, or my relationship with the TOS to get entertainment.
Again, and at the risk of being redundant, what makes you think that I deem you important enough for such an expenditure of time and effort? Because you aren't.
16. I felt, due to your past, that it is necessary to cover my own ass.
I'm telling you, kiddo, you're a psychiatrist's dream. Base on all the good and complimentary things we've put in print about each other in the past, I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out just what you're babbling about.
17. Since you've mentioned you are considering leaving Amanda at the helm of the WCSL, and joining TOS, I want to assure you that should Magistra Reynolds and Ipsissimus Aquino deem that appropriate, I will gladly and happily welcome you as a fellow traveler on the LHP. I have nothing BUT respect for the Temple and it's members. You, naturally, would be included.
Let's see...In this nauseating exercise in sucking up you have shown yourself to be a pretentious liar and ridiculously transparent.
1) I NEVER said I was considering leaving the helm of the WCSL for membership in the TOS, but more on that in my response to item #17.
2) Have you ever stopped to consider your weight problem is possibly due to your being so full of dung? I just love it; for reasons known only to you and Bill, you flirt with slander in an attempt to kiss TOS butt, then have the gall to turn around and claim I'd be welcomed as a member and fellow LHP traveler. Are you honestly so deluded that you think anyone with at least the ability to feed themselves can't see your tactics for what they are? Or has conceit and a bloated evaluation of your worth impeded your ability to recognize the truth? This is no disparagement on either Dr. Aquino or the Temple of Set, but there's no way in Hell I'd be part of any organization which allows its members to engage in the blatant and unfounded character assassination you have embarked upon.20
3) Just what evidence is there that you have even a minute grasp of what it means to be on the Left Hand Path? Or any path for that matter?
Despite my many protestations, since Halloween of '94 the so-called First Occult Church has done nothing more than straddle a fence, especially where obviously racist overtones existed within the organization. Bill's near fawning over the likes of FOC member Dr. Who (aka John Alder) despite his being a brazen Nazi, and the FOC's refusal to follow the path of decency by closing its doors to such fecal matter, speaks volumes about his lack of integrity.
You know, maybe I'm wrong. With hindsight tempered by all that's occurred in the last week, I can see there was and is a path you follow. And it's brown.
18. However, I must say, that when you told me this, and then said you had no intention of becoming an Adept II°, but just wanted to check it out and ". . .get all the cool stuff", I was indignant..
Aw, poor baby. Look, you are raising dishonesty to a new level, but it ain't gonna work, Gabby. I'm listening to my tape right now and there isn't anything even close to that on it. Here's an exact quote:
"I've thought about checking out the Temple of Set, but I wouldn't give up the WCSL; which is what I'd have to do if recognized to second degree. Sure I could join just to reap the benefits of being an initiate, but it wouldn't take long for that to become apparent. Anyway that's not my style."
You responded with "That's true, but if you do join, you get the Crystal Tablet of Set and a beautifully leather bound collection of every past issue of the Scroll of Set. You've got to see it!"
"I'd love to have it," I responded. "But I don't join things just for the goodies. Look, I know someone who's offering me a copy of the Ruby Tablet of Set, but because of my respect for Dr. and Mrs. Aquino I have refused." Enough said.
19. It (TOS) is the most advanced, most inspiring, most sincere occult society that has ever existed.
Buy a dictionary and check out the definition of subjective.
20. I don't just believe that, nor am I saying that to get brownie points with the folks I've sent copies to.
The day it was received, your letter was either read by or read to Ron Harris, Joseph Black, my wife, my daughters Amanda and Jessica, and Charles Kempf. Of all the parts that had them rolling, it was the above statement which got the most yucks out of the bunch. Especially Charles.
Don't forget, he was the one who orchestrated our November '92 (and my April '96) Geraldo appearance, and was witness to Bill's and your kowtowing to Peter Gilmore. I even remember my ex-wife turning to me and saying "God. . . Can you say 'puppies'?"
It's something you folk do quite well, and, unless I'm seriously mistaken, will get you nowhere within an organization the likes of the Temple of Set.
21. Even today you joked about the "over use" of the concept of self-improvement. While your unfamiliarity of this Setian concept is obvious, it is not just a part of our philosophy: Becoming is the very essence of TOS teachings. It isn't a fucking joke, Paul!
Who's joking? I'm absolutely serious. Whether it be Michael Aquino, Tony Robbins or Monnica (yes, two 'n's) Sepulveda; we are constantly being told by someone that we are flawed and cannot function as productive human beings unless we listen to them. Flawed is not a good thing to be. We must all strive to be infallible, divine. Every second of every day must be focused on Becoming Clear of Harmful engrams, Internal Equalization or a host of other paths to "perfection".
I say bullshit to all of it. Self-improvement is fine, but striving for a personality others think you should have, while casting aside the many nuances responsible for the uniqueness of one's persona, is a colossal waste.
Waking up each morning with the thought "how can I be a better person today" is not anything those of us comfortable with our imperfect selves are going to do. We just automatically try to be the best we can and, whether we succeed or not, go on secure in the knowledge that we as individuals make our own successes and mistakes. Any alterations to our personalities are made based on what we feel should be done.
Yes, input from others is acceptable, but only to a degree. In the final analysis no book, cassette or magical working is as important as the individual's desire for change. Your subjective belief I am flawed can't counter the objective fact of my perfect imperfection.
22. It is with regret that I close this letter with little hope of a solution. You poured salt on a deep wound Paul. . . now do us, and yourself, the honor of letting it all heal.
Your regret is as ersatz as your sincerity.
By the way, if poor l'il Bill was so wounded why has he not confronted me on his own? I mean, I realize he's whipped, that was obvious back in '94. Still, if he was anywhere near as upset as you claim, one would think he'd be man enough not to have mommy do his speaking.
23. Brighter than the sun, the Darkness Shines. . .
In summary, I assume it's fairly obvious the Gidneys have elevated boot-licking to high art. Throughout her rancid jeremiad, Gabby tossed out terms like friendship, honor and self-respect, yet the very act of her writing it and spreading it around shows a complete unawareness of their meanings. They want one thing and one thing only: recognition by the Temple of Set at any cost.
As should be clear by now, the Gidneys are not afraid to use subterfuge, misinformation, and slander (techniques learned from their Church of Satan days, no doubt) to reach their objective. It's sad, too, because despite some huge differences we had from the start, I was at least comforted by what I believed to be their trustworthiness. Oh well.
I remember doing a talk show some years back in which I said most Satanists were scumbags, and certainly not the type you'd ever want within a mile of your home. Apparently I'm not about to be proven wrong anytime soon.
In After the Fall Arthur Miller wrote: I dreamt I had a child, and even in the dream I saw that it was my life, and it was an idiot, and I ran away. But it always crept into my lap again, clutched at my clothes. Until I thought, if I could kiss it, whatever in it was my own, perhaps I could sleep. And I bent over the broken face, and it was horrible . . . but I kissed it. I think that one must finally take one's life in one's own arms.
The Gidneys should take note.
[NOTE: when the email and logs of Ygraine talking about "what happened" regarding Schlessinger were shown to Peggy, some "trust was betrayed." In other words, Ygraine said a trust Peggy had in her was betrayed. We are unable to fathom just what that is from the email and logs. Conclucion: Ygraine's version doesn't quite agree with Peggy's "accepted version." Ygraine does say she sees the need to "bite her tongue" when it comes to COS party line. SEE her log and my reply.]
Ygraine's log of how collecting proof including her emails and logs about Paul Valentine and Schlessinger "hurt" Peggy can be found above.