This is Peter's BOO mail given to everyone.
At the bottom: COS RULES of serflike behavior, has to read to be believed!
Peter = Peter Gilmore of the Church of Satan, Administrator of the Corporation.
Stewart = Timothy Stewart Epperhart, WolfAtHart, Citizen_Stewart.
Tani = Tani Jantsang
P & P = Peter Gilmore and Peggy Nadramia
As Peter explains, HIS will have [ ] on it. So this is an email FROM Peter Gilmore AND FROM Tani TO Timothy Stewart Epperhart (WolfAtHart) who will be shown in this document as Stewart since he called himself Citizen Stewart. What this shows is the "bullying" by Gilmore of Stewart WolfAtHart over that anti fascist thing he wanted to do, and what I wrote back to Stewart replying to what Peter said to him. This was also shown to The Mormon (Blanche). It also shows what he says behind the back about the dark doctrines and those who love them and find real Satanism in there. Gilmore imagines there is a Tani clique out there somewhere. Poor dear. It ends with one of the most REPRESSIVE, serf promoting things I ever read, written by Diane LaVey and approved of by Barton. This is a FAR CRY from my letters to LaVey where I wrote "YO DOC!"
What happened after Tim Stewart got this email from Gilmore? Tim was on voice chat and in the room and everyone involved witnessed his abject terror of Gilmore. Jacqueline Davis also admits he was terrified - of losing his stupid membership. He tried to cop out by telling Gilmore that "Tani wrote his commentary." Noooo, Casey edited it to make it readable, but the original was still intact and seen by all. Tim Stewart wrote it. Every word of it. He then confessed to Gilmore that he forgot he wrote it (!!) and continued to call this act of cowardice "a misconception." Of course, everyone excited about his Project One and who submitted essays to it turned ice cold toward Tim after that. The entire collection of essays can now be seen on Satanic Reds www.geocities.com/satanicreds/ under the title "Is Fascism Satanic." It is an excellent collection of informative essays.
From Tani to Stewart: Hold on here. See inside this email to you (Stew) from Peter for a minute. Where does he (Peter) tell you to trash your Project?
On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:26:36 GMT "Tim Epperhart" <&mrtimothyStewart@hotmail.com> writes:
Peter: Dear Mr. Stewart (Epperhart): I recently was asked by some members to view your new website, specifically the section dealing with your project regarding "fascism."
Tani: The section? The entire Project One is about fascism as an ideal.
Peter: Since we (the administration of the Church of Satan and Anton LaVey himself) have long considered this to be a dead issue (we had articles in "The Black Flame" which dealt with this over a course of several years), I wasn't inclined to spend the time. However, I was told that you present erroneous information about the Church of Satan as if it were factual, and that claim did require investigation. I found it to be true. I note that your project essentially consisted of sending out an email letter and then gathering and posting responses. I counted the responses, and they were written by less than twenty individuals. Since the Church of Satan consists of many thousands of members, very few of whom are online, if this was intended to be a comprehensive "survey," it certainly fails. In actuality it is only a reflection of the opinions of online individuals who are in direct contact with you and who chose to respond.
Tani: That is exactly what it is - like a message board and nothing more. And if ANYONE ELSE replies - that was going to get put into it. In fact, it already did - it's gotten revised a few times due to new replies.
Comprehensive? You posted it on alt.satanism a few times. Thousands? Are there thousands of authors in the Black Flame?
Peter: By any statistical standards, this makes your project meaningless, if it is meant to convey information regarding the Church of Satan.
Tani: [Tani says TIM wrote this as part of the original 'survey']
Now, I clearly saw you write that it was about the "ideal of fascism" in the COS. Since you could NOT obtain things from the ones defending this fascist ideal, and I saw you DID TRY, in fact MANY OTHERS ALSO TRIED, I managed to dredge up something Peggy wrote herself - about the IDEAL of fascism.
Peter: You are not an administrator of the Church of Satan, nor are any of the people who responded to you (a number of whom aren't even members of the Church of Satan). So, you personally should have borne such facts in mind when making the broad generalizations in your own introduction and conclusion to the emails which you received in response to your letter. But it is clear that you did not. You assume that you have some knowledge about the Church of Satan at large, its membership and its practices, and this is completely erroneous.
Tani: The ideal of fascism was written about openly and posted. The assumption was far from erroneous. I personally had a thrash with one of them: want the logs? Maybe the logs of Davis going on about it would be better if I can get those?
Peter: My general impressions concerning these emails (save for the very sensible response by "Wooki") is that a straw man is being established (the concept that there is some kind of "fascist faction" which has a hand in controlling the Church of Satan) and then knocked down.
Tani: "You are our Waffen SS" written by P. Gilmore? apparently, to some COS people. To paraphrase "Come to us for the dirt that we know on these people, then go flame them for calling us fat." Since he never denied writing it, I assume he wrote it. But - he never wrote such an email to me - I was not online. Remember, that other guy is "a FAT faggot."
The Fascists?: K. S. Anthony. Jeff Nagy (want the logs?), and of course, Chris Turner and a few others. Let us not forget the Davis couple. John was LURED INTO a very interesting chat with a person he thought agreed with him quite awhile ago. He was a BONAFIDE fascist alright.
Peter: If indeed there is a "fascist faction," neither you nor any of your respondents spent any time in listing the members of this group by name or listing their numbers, nor is any time spent in quoting any of their works which would prove their agenda - which you state to be the intention to force other Church of Satan members to "agree with them or leave the Church of Satan."
Tani: Yeah, you did say that, and in your original ungrammatical version you said it 100 times stronger (in the conclusion). Casey merely fixed the grammar. Nothing else. I wrote NOTHING in there except my own stuff and did nothing but take out the brb brb brb marks and other crap that was on some of the responses, and spell check it with MS word. HOW DARE you say you "forgot" you wrote it? If I get hold of YOUR ORIGINAL, ho, I'll post it! You accuse ME of writing it? I did NO SUCH THING: I couldn't even READ IT. Nor could I read 'The Beast.'
Perhaps you should have provided proof of the Nagy, Boe or Sebastian or whoever it was clique with their Auschwitz 2000 chat room, or whatever they called it. You knew about this, but you DO NOT provide proof. See, saving things IS important. Your WORD is NOT good enough! SEE? I told you.
Peter: If you cannot prove that a substantial percentage of the membership of the Church of Satan has preached a specific political agenda (namely "fascism") and then demanded that all of the other members must agree with this or leave, then this project has no validity.
Tani: Yeah, you did say that - oh, but the original conclusion was SO DAMNED STRONG that I said "Jesus Christ man....does he really want to say THAT?" I even asked you on the PHONE if you wanted to keep that. You agreed to eliminate the WORST sentence - something akin to an outright threat. It was PHEW. PHEW.
Peter: It is simply what it is: a handful of people shooting the breeze about a topic. It is a collection of opinions, and we all know that it is said that "opinions are indeed like assholes - everyone has one...etcetera."
Tani: Yes indeed: that is all I ever thought it was: opinions. I don't see that this is anti COS at all. Not at all. Where? Why such a WAY overboard over reaction here? (overreaction on the part of Peter Gilmore).
Peter: Let me examine the introduction and conclusion which you wrote to bracket the solicited emails. I have quoted this text directly from your site, and my questions and comments are interpolated and will be enclosed in brackets. My questions are rhetorical and what I state is not intended to fuel debate. My purpose is to make an offer to you and those who think as you do, and you will come across it in due course.
Stewart: By: Timothy Stewart Epperhart - "Wolf At Hart" The successes of fascism easily make people lose all perspective and result in their forgetting, or being ignorant of the actual conditions which made the strengthening and the victory of fascism possible.
Note brackets, this is Peter's text.
Peter: [This is what is called a "sweeping generalization," as any high school writing teacher would point out. Detailed evidence is required to support such a claim, and unfortunately none is supplied by you or your respondents in all that is to follow. What are the "successes" and "victory" of fascism, particularly when we all know that fascist states have, for the most part, fallen? ]
Tani: This is the entire point of the anti-fascists. They LOST. The successes however, along with the flashy costumes and parades, are what make people "lose all perspective and result in their forgetting, or being ignorant of the actual conditions which made the strengthening and the victory of fascism possible." That is how I read that. :) Perhaps I deconstructed the text? I don't think so. lol. The SUCCESSES of Hitler are, indeed, astounding. It took the WORLD to beat him! THE WORLD. They see only the successes: they forget the miserable conditions that caused fascism to arise; they always forget that they LOST in the end. That's the ALLURE of it. The sublimated desire is inner rage, a desire to be "elite" and oftentimes it's a sexual fetish.
Stewart: Introduction: First of all, I'm going to allow the readers of this document to understand that this project came about from a simple letter and correspondence over E-mail; Initially my intentions were set on making an in depth article with the help of some acquaintances, and in some cases non-acquaintances if that was their choice: And yes, there was choice. Speak up and be heard: or shut up!
Peter: [This reveals your agenda: you DEMAND participation in your project - that people MUST come argue in your "sandbox," and then you dismiss any who don't think it worthy of participation and tell them to be silent. Sounds rather "fascistic" to me. It could be that many people wouldn't think you have the credentials to be capable of handling such a project with the requisite objectivity, let alone the literary and editorial skills needed, and opted out for that reason.]
Tani: 'Speak up and be heard' is not a fascist dictum. It is er, rather democratic. Isn't that what you wanted? It's like a message board. So what's wrong with that? No one else thinks this is a big deal, not one of the respondents thinks this - including me.
Stewart: Here is the Original Letter: I am going to analyze the "ideal of Fascism" that we see within the Satanic movement at the present time. I asked for both sides and hoped for an historically objective account.
Peter: [You asked whom for both sides? Did you contact any members of the Church of Satan who have claimed to be attempting to make this organization a fascist organization?.....
Tani: Did you say that? I just read "ideal of fascism."
Stewart, I believe you perhaps should have come forward with the information you got from your contact on satannet - the one who KNOWS who they are and who told you some of their names, or just provided them yourself with logs to prove it or whatever else you have. You sure the hell came forth STRONGLY with this - and at that time I thought you were one of them lol!! SOMETHING must have made you write it - and whoever imagines I had A THING to do with it, better screw their heads on tighter. I didn't even know about it. Hell, Valinda knew about it 1 month before I did. MANY did. That would have been interesting if you provided proof. My whole angle on this shit is that there is nothing political going on because these people are political idiots. My whole contention is (and I know this) that their fetish is SEXUAL. That their desire is based on emotional rage as an impetus. They aren't Nazis or fascists. They are idiots.
Peter: .....Essentially, I doubt that you could have, as there aren't any members who are attempting to do this.....
Tani: Except "LizDictator" i.e., Jeff Nagy. LOL. Want logs? And there is dear Ygraine who swears she heard Doc say that the COS was a dictatorship - and there is M. Aquino who heard Doc say 100 times that a real devil exists in a real hell and whispers to him - or whatever. Whatever.
Peter: .....The Church of Satan has always been politically pragmatic - I've said it, LaVey has said it. The Church of Satan does not dictate the politics of its members, and they are (and have always been) free to choose whatever suits their personal needs. For the record, those outside the Church of Satan have, from its inception, accused it of all manner of politics: communism, fascism, anarchism, liberalism, conservatism - and just about anything else you can think of, all of which are mutually exclusive. What IS clear, is that journalists who have an "axe to grind" against the Church of Satan have always accused it of advocating a political system which is one they personally abhor - thus the Church of Satan plays the role of "devil" to them in whatever arena of human thought they wish to explore.]
Stewart: The statements made by Magistrate Nadramia in her "speculation on similarities between Fascism and Satanism" are noted and should be viewed for relevance. The URL for that article is or was: http://www.apodion.com/vad/cos/s_n_Nazi.shtml (It is also in "Is Fascism Satanic" on www.geocities.com/satanicreds/
Peter: [This article is still relevant (and was heartily endorsed by Anton LaVey - which doesn't require that you do likewise), and it was interesting to note how some of your respondents supplied their own definitions for fascism - essentially putting a spin on what Magistra Nadramia had said very clearly, then argued against it. More "straw man" tactics, which are among the methodologies used by demagogues.]
Tani: I did that. But I did that regarding the "fascist force" being the dark force. Why these high falluting accusations here? LOL - what an over reaction. WHY?
Tani: The Fascist, a/k/a Nazi movement
Peter: [Some of your respondents did attempt to clarify your error of conflating these terms. That you said this is an example, however, of a very real "herd" definition of these terms. In the 1960's the radical left preached a philosophy of "peace and love" which really boiled down to the concept of leveling everything to being "equal." This "philosophy" championed the abandoning of any rational criteria for evaluation of anything, and the embracing of everything as being of equal value, which thus fostered mediocritization of every level of human cultural endeavor. We are still living in the fallout of this mode of thinking, as the then young people who espoused these ideas have grown to adulthood and are now the "establishment" (those adults whom they considered to be the enemy during the sixties). This "egalitarianism" (for that is what they called it) was manifested in the cultural arena with concepts such as: "Anything can be defined as being art and all such works must be considered to have equal validity."....
Tani: What they really practiced was a total exclusion of ART that was really pretty - and a fostering of some of the ugliest shit ever made. Statues of ice pops. Piss Jesus. Shit used to paint scribbles on a canvas. Ugly music. Etc. They waged the campaign against disco and dancing too. All those hippies (99%) are now Christian Coalition.
Peter: .....Thus, some random splashes on a canvas were considered an equal achievement to the Sistine Chapel, a mud hut was held up as being equivalent to Versailles, and so on. This principle of "indiscrimination" lead to all other fields of achievement. A janitor was considered the equivalent to a physicist, a novelist was now the peer of one who scrawled graffiti on a bathroom wall and so on. Those who opposed this leveling were accused of being "fascists" or "Nazis," without regard for what these terms might have meant in their actual historical origins and practice. After all, it was the mid-sixties, twenty years after the ending of a war that none of these folks were even alive to have experienced. How quickly past orthodoxies are forgotten. The Church of Satan was created in the mid-sixties and stood in contradistinction to these ideas, which were generally defined as being "liberal." .....
Tani: I called the liberal bs "TYRANNICAL FASCISM" or some similar expression. and I explained it with a verbatim report from HUAA! That report proves beyond a doubt that the entire "liberal tyrannical age" was SABOTAGE by FOREIGN AGENTS out to BURY the USA. PROVES it. Archives prove it. That is, they prove that HOOVER WAS RIGHT. I knew that.
Peter: .....From the time of the very foundation of the organization, Anton LaVey and the members of the Church of Satan were appalled at this societal trend, which favored the elimination of concrete criteria for the evaluation of just about anything and instead advocated that any kind of merit was illusory - and thus that the act of evaluation was an "evil" practice. "Discrimination" became a "bad word," when previously it had meant "sound judgment." Well, the Church of Satan never shied away from embracing things which society considered "evil," and thus it championed a rebirth of strict criteria for evaluation of all areas of human endeavor, and quite radically placed the responsibility for this squarely on the shoulders of each individual. Thus, there was no "appeal to authority" for Satanists - each person held the responsibility for being their own authority. For this reason, we were called "fascists" and "Nazis" - NOT because of any advocation of the sociopolitical ends of these historical movements......
Tani: No appeal to authority, means no dictators. Each person held responsible for being their OWN authority means no dictators, no bosses and no serfs. Tell that to the Three Bitches of Stepford who, undoubtedly, lol, complained about your Project. I thought you sent this to P and P before you elicited responses. You told me you printed it out and sent it to Blanche and wanted to make a BOOK.
Peter: .....Satanists today do not shy away from being called these names for this very same reason. We champion merit and superior achievement in all areas, and are the enemy of enshrined mediocrity. We abhor what we see as a society that is a rampant "mediocracy." The masses (in the sixties as well as of today) don't know what the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" really mean in a historical sense. These are used as epithets against anyone with whom they don't agree. Most frequently they are employed by "politically correct" intellectuals who use "Nazi" and "fascist" in the same manner that Joe McCarthy used the word "communist" and the Christian Inquisitors used the word "witch" - to discredit the validity of the accused's point of view and brand them a "heretic/thought criminal." Because of the continuing decline in the level of education, even amongst those who pursue degrees at major universities, we can expect that there will be no real broad understanding of what the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" really mean. These will simply remain derogatory epithets used against those perceived to be "the bad guys.".....
Tani: I defined them very clearly in my first response to you, which is what I thought you wanted. You SHOULD have documented things on those you know to BE would-be fascists - bully types that really DO want the COS to become fascist. P and P know damned well who at least ONE is. They have the logs.
Peter: .....Satanists are aware of what impact words and images have on the herd, and thus use them to their advantage. It should be clear to anyone who has observed human society that there is an all-pervading interest on the part of the contemporary general public with the Third Reich. This commentary to you would grow to gigantic proportions should I take the time to examine the reasons for this (most of which should be obvious). Anyone with cable television or who happens to visit movie theatres will see that the Nazis are now the standard archetype in entertainment for what the masses deem to be "Evil" - and they are fascinated with this and fetishize it to no end. Do you watch "The History Channel" (whose emblem is a carved, angular letter "H")? We jokingly say that this really stands for "Hitler" not "History" as over 50% of their programming is Third Reich related. Yes, it's a HERD thing.
It should come as no surprise to any Satanist, that certain savvy Satanists who make their living entertaining the masses (like Boyd Rice or Brian Warner) use the public's obsession with this material for their own ends......
Tani: Snowjob lol. Does he really think that "others" do NOT know these people in real life? Lucifer Rising has a lot to say about it - they documented enough of it. Boyd Rice "is" Wayne Hill.
Peter: .....Hence both have used symbols and techniques derived from Third Reich spectacles (which were undeniably powerful means for motivating masses of people) for the purpose of stimulating their audiences and thus putting money in their pockets. Is this advocating political fascism? No.]
Stewart: ..initially had specific criteria which are notable. The Nazis are well known for their treatment of the Jews in their area, which they exterminated for being "a weaker race." Scientists do acknowledge a similarity in "Jewish People" or Semites, via gene analysis, but such analysis didn't exist during those times; needless to say, the Nazis viewed the Jews not as a religion, but as a race. The best solution the Nazis came up with for so-called stratification, was to adopt the most potent political system at their disposal: Fascism. This was Nazism.
Peter: [In point of fact, "stratification" was not the goal of the German fascists. They sought political power and needed a scapegoat for the economic woes of many people.....
Tani: I believe that me, Jeff Gerber and many others clarified this FALSE notion that the Nazis had stratification. Guess he didn't read that.
Peter: .....They chose the Jews, since many were economically successful, and galvanized much of the populace into following them through this hatred. They also targeted communists, whom they felt were enemies to their system of National Socialism. Once the Nazis took power, their first order of business was to imprison political enemies, many of whom were communists. These were the people incarcerated in concentration camps, long before any program was established to put Jews in these camps simply because of their being Jewish. In fact, the German government worked with Zionist movements to export Jews to the area now known as Israel, even helping these people to evade British blockades in their quest to emigrate to their ancestral "homeland." The Holocaust happened later, at a time of greater desperation for the Nazi State.]
Tani: But the "ideal of fascism" present today in Satanism is founded upon the notion that certain magical meanings exist behind ancient symbols, e.g., the Swastika.
Peter: [This statement is complete bunk. Which Satanists said this and where?]
Tani: You said "in Satanism." You did not say in COS. The statement is not bunk at all. MANY other Satanic orgs, november9.org eg, claim it to be a magical symbol. Especially, this is so of the Odinist types who claim to be Satanists.
Stewart: Also influencing them is that the Swastika is looked upon as being "Evil" like the Sigil of Baphomet. The Swastika was considered a very atrocious thing. What the Swastika actually meant in the past has no bearing on any of this, regardless of Herd Misconceptions.
Peter: [The herdıs misconceptions have EVERYTHING to do with how a Satanist uses symbols to influence the herd. That should be obvious. The folks who run around today and try to reclaim the swastika as a "good" symbol have totally failed to supplant the herd's identification of this as a sign of "ultimate Evil," far more potent to them than the Sigil of Baphomet. Satanists take note of this fact. When dealing with mass consciousness, original meanings are not of any importance, but the current meanings are all important - which was the import of my discussion of the terms "Nazi" and "fascist" above.]
Stewart: "Amidst the Hitlerian concept of strength through joy!" -ASL, The Satanic Bible. Indeed, Hitler was no fool when he offered the people freedom on a personal level, but the way that it was done was wrong and is opposed to Church of Satan doctrine.
Peter: [Here is the crux of what is a major misprision that exists in almost all of the people who responded to your project. It is that they identify with the herd, and not the rulers of these projected "idealistic" fascist societies.]
Tani: No one that wrote identifies with the herd AT ALL. Boy, he doesn't know these people AT ALL. They are not the types to make target practice of themselves, but they DO GET what they want from the world. They use ANY methods they need to use, too, many are well off - but oh, speaking for myself, I'm not against posing as poor to try to GET BACK some of the hard cash I shelled out for the care of UNWANTED WARDS. (It didn't work). I can absolutely say that about almost all of the ones I know that wrote to you. Some I don't know.
Peter: [Fascism in actuality is a doctrine that requires the submission of individuals to the goals of the state. It is a collectivist philosophy, suppressing individualism, which states that each person should sacrifice himself to an abstract principle, which is treated as a mythologically sacred entity - THE STATE.
Tani: Uh, Phil Marsh explained that. So did many others.
Peter: The past supposed "glories" of the state become the sacred icons in what is in actuality a new religion. Fascism is clearly a means for controlling herds (and one that was effective). When this doctrine is placed into practice, there has to be somebody who tells the herd what the needs of THE STATE are to be, since THE STATE is just an abstraction - it does not exist. Here enters the "Ruling Class" - otherwise known as the Nazi Party, The Communist Party, the Khmer Rouge, and so on. These rulers claim to embody THE STATE, and tell the masses what is the will of THE STATE, and they reign much like the ancient priesthoods, who held their power by being the only ones capable of communicating to people the "will of the Gods." These people are a de facto "aristocracy," which uses THE STATE for its raison d'etre, just as the latter day heads of some of the communist states handed down THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE as their excuse for controlling their massed subjects. These rulers are not subject to sacrificing themselves to THE STATE, because they are the ones who, as embodiments of THE STATE, choose who is to be sacrificed (and they don't pick themselves - though sometimes they do pick their cohorts who are getting a bit too cocky). These kinds of rulers now use terms more palatable to our century, whose masses won't buy such old excuses as "the divine right of kings," but their means are identical. Of course, these rulers are often foiled by subsequent "prophets," who convince the masses that they, rather than the current rulers, embody THE STATE, and so counter-revolutions occur and the former leaders are usually dispatched with violence.
Tani: Bingo! A dictator is a dictator, under any name.
Peter: "Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain!" said the glowering face in a fountain of fire (THE STATE/THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE), hoping that Dorothy and crew wouldn't notice who really is pulling the strings. But Toto (the beast) pulled aside the curtain. Now we might begin to see how Satanists factor in to this equation. The Satanist should always be aware of who is really running the situation in which he finds himself. Satanists do not see themselves as being part of the herd and naturally resist any attempts to be forced to live under any regimes that would make them part of the controlled herd. However, Satanists really don't care how the herd is being controlled, so long as they themselves aren't subject to being controlled along with them. If forced by circumstance to be part of such a governmental situation (and I caution the reader to examine how much he really knows about the machinations of his current nation of residence), the clever Satanist would either be the person who pulls the strings, or, more likely, his associate. Being the one behind a "leader" is generally a safer position, as the leader is always a target, while the advisors often survive changes in "top dogs."
Tani: I believe I hinted at such in a rather blunt manner - and at HOW these particular Satanists are BEING pulled along by the would be dictators on our horizon: the xian coalition.
Peter: Some Satanists who are "political idealists" might envision a future wherein Satanists are the "man behind the curtain" directing the herd to support their own personal indulgences - the herd sacrificing themselves to a ruling, but necessarily hidden, Satanic "elite." Frankly, I see this as a political pipedream. Running a state would leave little time for personal indulgences and enjoying one's life. In contemporary Western society, the only political factions likely to attempt create a fascistic system (as meant by the original meanings of the terms) are the right-wing Christians (and the film, "The Handmaid's Tale" provides a chilling visualization of this possibility). I think it far more productive to advocate a system which guarantees freedom for the exercise of many points of view (so long as it doesn't require me to pay for wastrels who want a free ride).
Tani: Agree. I brought up the xian coalition quite a lot.
Peter: But we in the administration of the Church of Satan do not control the thoughts of our members, so if some of them want to toy with these "political dreams," that is their business. As long as they don't drag our Church into any political agendas, their personal pursuits remain just that: personal.]
Tani: They are not keeping them personal. I believe this is WHY you began your project. I thought you were ONE OF THEM and was reluctant to email you back. Then I saw others knew about it. So I asked you what you wanted. They are not keeping anything personal, they are attacking by many means, anyone that "dares" to be creative in a way not to their liking. As a result, they get flamed and criticized in turn. They are FUCKING with a lot of people and if P and P don't know this, they OUGHT to know it. Seems they are ignoring that and ONLY noticing the retaliations?
Stewart: Herd mentality is a sin in CoS doctrine and it is noted: how else would the Nazis be able to exterminate a race? On a personal level? Was this a way for an ideal form of stratification?
Peter: [Did anyone say it was?]
Tani: You should save logs and emails. Your word is not good enough.
Stewart: Is murder stratification, and would these actions be "justified" because they were founded upon a Fascistic point of view?
Peter: [That humans kill one another is a part of the way our species functions. When nations come into conflict with each other, and this escalates beyond economic exchanges, what in peacetime would be termed "murder" then becomes justified in the hands of the military. How the conflicts finally pan out is one of the means for large-scale stratification in our species.]
Stewart: E-Mail Observations and information to mrtimothyStewart@hotmail.com I look forward to writing this article, in any case. Thank you for participation. Hail Satan! Hail the Church of Satan! Timothy Stewart
Stewart: Stewart's commentary: Now we come to the end where it is necessary to evaluate these responses and fill in the blanks.
Stewart: I am sure some of the points raised will hit home with many readers, both those who are members of the CoS and those who are not. Some of what you've read you probably already understood since history is rife with examples of the affects of Fascism and it is fairly easy to see, in those examples, just what kind of people Fascism appeals to.
Peter: [Since multi-level definitions of "fascism" were not explored in this project (you and your respondents missed its "common-parlance" usage and chose to concentrate only on some of its historical definitions), the analyses in the postings on your site concerning what form of attractions/repulsions it may have for certain types of individuals do not even begin to qualify as being exhaustive or even relevant.]
Tani: It was my understanding that MORE would respond. Eg. Vad is one I know. Others know other people. He has not yet responded. Each new response, I was told, would be added - much like a message board. I believe that Metadromos wanted to MAKE IT into a message board. But you told me to format it for a BOOK. So I did, in MS word.
Stewart: Regardless of the differences between the "moral foundations" of those Fascists in the past and the present Fascist infection, as I see it, they share the same intentions.
Peter: [It is curious that you use the word "infection" here, yet no effort has been made on your site to demonstrate just what is being infected, by whom, and to what extent.
Tani: I read that to mean the Christian Coalition. I also understood you to mean the Christian Coalition when you wrote me about people "hiding among us or out to hurt us." I said they are not hiding, they are under your nose. I was talking about the Christian Coalition. I read this portion to mean THEM. Does anyone doubt that the Christian Coalition is an infection? That's a "Mengele" (person on satannet) expression btw. Would they infiltrate a Satanic org? I think so. Why not? They have used the tactics of the PAID-LEFT SABOTEURS, in fact, to infiltrate every level of government, including TINY school boards. They are in everything, literally IN everything. Doctors have to kowtow to them and leave ultra Xian leaflets. They are using the same tactics as did trained spies.
Peter: So, using this term is an attempt at pushing emotional buttons without justification - not rational argument.]
Stewart: That is, to form an "All is One" union or dictatorship at the highest levels in the organization that would trickle down, via brainwashing, and a "toe the line or get out" party line to the rank-and-file.
Tani: On this I thought you meant FCOS. "All is One." That's Egan's thing. But "in the organization" was confusing. Casey fixed the grammar only, but the meaning was still vague to me, too. "Toe the line or get out?" Uh...
Peter: [The Church of Satan has never required anything of its members except that they hold the writings of Anton LaVey as their basis for membership in this organization. Members are free to build their own personal viewpoints on this foundation. If people have substantial disagreements with LaVey's work, or wish to promote something else as the basis for Satanism, like the "dark doctrines,".....
Tani: Excuse me: ROOTS of Satanism - incorporated by LaVey, respected by LaVey. "You have a firm understanding of my philosophy and know me remarkably well." Not typed by Blanche to me. Written by Doc to me. Ergo: LAVEYAN in the truest sense of the word. For whom does he think this stuff was written for? Same thing for the DD stuff on Vad's website. P and P asked us to "defend" Doc on the "dark force" issue. Oh, we did. We defended DOC. We did not defend ourselves. :) Perhaps P and P forgot that? We DO NOT call this the Dark Force amongst ourselves. Never did. :)
Peter: .....then they should not be members and should tender their resignations immediately.
Tani: LaVey disagreed on that. He gave both Phil and I Mag degrees for some VERY CONTRARY things we wrote directly TO HIM. Neither the SD nor the DD contradict LaVey's works, words, OR INTENTS. They ENHANCE them. It is unfortunate that P and P no longer "know" that. Doc out and said it: firm understanding......etc." (As a matter of fact, before P or P got discs to post this, Doc was mailed a hard copy).
Peter: There is no "brainwashing" in this organization - we don't have the time for such labor intensive activities, which would garner minimal results, and which are counter to our basic principles.
Tani: Peter should REMIND the people that believe that "DOC SAID that the COS was a dictatorship" of this fact, who then, IN NON GROTTO SITUATIONS!, commence to "get" others to behave like obedient serfs ("if only to keep on the GOOD SIDE of the higher ups" - WANT LOGS?). He should remind those that are behaving like dictators: which is why you claim you wrote the whole damned Project to begin with! OH, you forgot? What you wrote in the original conclusion was STRONG - it was like a declaration of war. Perhaps Chaos or Casey have the original text - the one with the bad grammar that they both fixed. (GOT IT!) Casey also eliminated redundant paragraphs that were STRONGER than that last paragraph that's in there. It was just too much. He should remind the WOULD BE dictators and the WOULD BE serfs, just as we reminded people that "DOC DID NOT SAY that the devil was a literal being so long ago" - which resulted in the whole DD website! He should remind HIMSELF. I won't forget that. He should remind those that have SOUGHT OUT STRIFE WITH US AND MANY OTHERS what a klippoth is - and that TOOK our own definition and incorporated it himself. I attack ONLY when attacked. Simple, real simple. I also ignore a hell of a lot.
Peter: As from the beginning, we are a cabal of very independent individuals who share a philosophy synthesized by Anton LaVey as our point of commonality. And we will not try to force our members into some kind of lock-step unity in their personal choices for building upon LaVey's foundation. However, one thing I see in common amongst many of the responders to your letter, is that they usually do identify themselves as a self-proclaimed "faction" who center themselves on the ideas of Tani Jantsang, not those of Anton LaVey.
Tani: Ho, excuse me? Who would that be? We represent Pythagoreanism, something Blanche herself cited as COS having roots in. If she no longer wishes to incorporate what Doc wanted to incorporate, she will have to retract that statement entirely and claim to have NO ROOTS. NONE. We represent Roots of Satanism - and explanations for DOC'S Dark Force. He himself saw these since I mailed them to him. These are incorporated INTO the COS - they ENHANCE, they do not detract. There is a definite faction that is hell bent determined to TRASH this - and replace it with what? They are now putting "new words" into Doc's mouth, too. They are treating him like Jesus. Lest someone forget - part of what's on the DD website are COS versus TOS, and COS 9 Statements Revisited for those that didn't get it the first time. Doc SAW this stuff. He liked it a lot. So it goes. WE who wrote this do not live and breathe this stuff - as some OTHERS may well do. We here are not scripture holders! or quoters. ANY scripture. But there are MANY OUT THERE that want to KNOW this stuff - and who have LOOKED FOR this stuff for years. SURE they are happy to have finally found it somewhere. And SURE, they like the one who SPOKE IT and SHOWED IT.
Peter: Even if this is not admitted, any casual observer of the writings of these people makes this very clear.
Tani: Ha! That would come as a mighty surprise to the majority of them, they who have NEVER read the Satanic Doctrines Through the Ages and who barely glanced at Vad's website! Casey herself never even read ANY of it! She knows it, but not from us.
Peter: And, from their recent activities in chat rooms and on Usenet, it is abundantly apparent that this clique is set on making the Church of Satan a "one true way" organization based on their interpretations of issues of sociology, politics, and biology.
Tani: That is pure rubbish. We all have our own opinions - and we choose to voice them (I sign off as TJ, no title) then we have the freedom voice them. THAT 5 or more people agree doesn't mean that these people even KNOW each other, OR KNOW ME, nor does it mean they ever talked to me. Biology is a hard science. There is NO interpretation, same for neurology - a part of biology. The other two, sociology and politics, I have personally talked thru 100 sides of my mouth on - and HE ( Peter) DAMNED WELL KNOWS THIS! I have even talked a hard core Nazi line as one of the sides. Do I sense jealousy? People DO LIKE our stuff - it's got information in it they CAN NOT find elsewhere. It points to MORE information - hard information - not subject to interpretation. As for anything NOT hard: talk liberal to me and you'll meet a Nazi. Talk fascism to me and you'll meet a Commie. And so it goes. CHALLENGE. That is The Dialogue. Make someone THINK - tho I find less and less ABLE t! o even read something and grasp the content of the damned text.
Peter: This "faction" clearly plays "Inquisition" and labels those members of the Church of Satan who disagree with them as "Klippoths".....
Tani: Not so. At least I don't do that. If someone IS a klip, I see it and say it, no matter if he/she agrees with me or not. Simple as that.
Peter: .....(remember, Joe McCarthy and the Inquisitors as mentioned above?), and is now working to make their opinions the basis for the Church of Satan. I represent the administration of the Church of Satan and state that we will not tolerate this attempt at turning our organization into a totalitarian organization whose sole aim is the promotion of the agendas of this small group of individuals. These people followed their own paths in the past, and didn't require that others kowtow to them.
Afterthought NOTE: IMAGINE THIS? This is the guy, Peter Gilmore, that urged the "White Devil Gang" and all of us to out, trash, and otherwise go after and terrorize enemies of the COS not so long ago! He is criticizing his OWN damned "storm troopers" here! It was no problem pointing out klippoths (real ones) if they were not COS members and trashing the hell out of them in public forum with information about them (DIRT) supplied by Peter Gilmore himself! OH, but when COS members are klippoths it's not OK? LOL! He's just pissed off that WE would NOT do this to EGAN! Like, we had enough of it. If Egan became a threat it was NO SECRET why: Egan was pissed off at, get this: Peter Gilmore and his Storm Troopers. LOL!! Was Egan wrong? Hell no: Peter's own secret (now exposed) email admits to it! Imagine this; he's writing this to Stewart, a relative newby to the COS. He never imagined that Stewart would GIVE US THIS EMAIL!
Tani: This is EXACTLY what we all try to do now - but we have been FUCKED WITH, INTERFERED WITH and otherwise shit-disturbed. What, have P and P been BLIND to that? We did not throw the first fucking stone here. THEY DID. Who is They? The Three Bitches of Stepford, Red of Tasc who (OH THE LOGS) is in cahoots with LUPO (viola!), Jill Panther who, if one judges by text alone, P and P SURE DID TRUST once upon a time. Before that who was it? Scratch and Lupo, of and formerly of the TOS? And what for? OH, Because we were defending DOC's two words: dark force.
Peter: However, particularly since these folk are active "online," lately their ideas seem less and less based on the work of LaVey, and consequently more and more demanding that all other members of the Church of Satan whom they encounter must agree with them.
Tani: That, is undefiled RUBBISH. That is SUCH HUGE rubbish that it's LAUGHABLE. They think their imagined " Tani clique" all agree? On some things sure - some I know and some strangers agree. On other things? At least they have the BRAINS to debate it and KNOW SOMETHING REAL about what the hell they are talking about - whatever it is. That's a clique now? OH. phphphphph. I think not.
Peter: If they find individual members who disagree,.....
Tani: DISAGREE? OH, is that what they did? Threatening emails, phone calls, taunting and clinging, dogging posts to say nyaaa nyaaa, and other such shit is "disagreeing?" LOL! I turned the threats over to the police investigating crimes here of a Satanic nature. I DID! I don't recall any COS members "disagreeing" with anything anyone said - except when they tried to START an argument by accusing, and then PROVING they don't know what the hell they are even talking about and never read anything they were attacking. What they attacked was not even on a Satanic website, NOR was it linked! Who the hell are they to butt into personal shit? They are NOBODY. Butt 3 times and EXPECT a fight.
Peter: .....they have stated that they will attempt to drive them out. This is not acceptable, as it is not the business of this clique to determine who is or who is not a member of the Church of Satan. They are not administrators of this organization, and they are not arbiters of membership.
Tani: I know that Ygraine and her husband had a real campaign to get rid of Andre Schlessinger. Her emails and logs prove this beyond a doubt. Or did P and P forget that? How could they: Ygraine went to Blanche with the complaint. Jeff Nagy also wants him out. Did P and P forget that too? I don't give a flying fuck who joins the org. So long as they STOP fucking with me or friends and then crying fowl when we, UNITED now, ATTACK BACK.
Peter: As Dr. LaVey has said, when ice melts, it is called water. So, if this clique has decided that they have a new foundation for their concepts of Satanism (and Tani herself has said there is little of Satanism, by her definition, in the Church of Satan).....
Tani: Correction: ASIDE FROM LAVEY'S STUFF and the SDocs and some other stuff - there is little. ! I'm not talking about creative art or music here. Even Christians can be creative: does that make them Satanic?
Peter: .....then they are all invited to leave immediately and found their own unique organization.]
Stewart: The reader who is paying attention will note the similarity in this (fascist) doctrine and outlook to the early Christian doctrine of "Convert or Die."
Peter: [Essentially this defines the tactics used by the Tani
clique (Agree with our way of "correcting" LaVey or be branded a
[Tani post-pends the claim that it was *Ole's* prevalent behaviour to call those disagreeing 'Klippoths'.] <
Tani: Correcting LaVey? WHERE? LaVey SAW all that stuff on DD site. "You have a CLEAR understanding of my philosophy. You know me remarkably well." That's what THE MAN SAID. OH, right, this is Peter talking. I have what LaVey wrote, in writing. Not hearsay. Now there is a "Tani clique?" The man is delusional. Most of the people who love the DDoctrines don't even know me!
Peter: .....NOT the Church of Satan's administration, which accepts a rather diverse set of means derived from LaVeyıs writings.]
Stewart: The proponents of this Organizational Fascism
Peter: [Whom you have still failed to identify.]
Tani: WE WILL identify them, hell, the book "Lucifer Rising" identified them!
Stewart: cannot practice that doctrine in full in the real world because those in the past that objected to this tyranny bought our freedom from that fate with their blood.
Peter: [This reads like a threat to the straw man of "proponents of Organizational Fascism," that those who disagree with them will do so "with their blood." That is typical rhetorical nonsense, not rational debate - a tactic used so effectively by Dr. Goebbels, I might add.]
Stewart: Were it still a valid option, however, the vehemence of the Satanic Fascist faction
Peter: [Some evidence of this "vehemence," please.]
Tani: I believe you sent them logs? Or did you not log all that you TOLD US about? I didn't send the logs you showed me to them. I'm done with that.
Stewart: makes it fairly plain that it would be a method joyously utilized by them to silence the opposition! "You better shut up!" "You better drop this project." "You can leave if you don't like it."
Tani: they said that to you in CHAT and you DID NOT log it.
Peter: [Has any member of the administration of the Church of Satan told any of the people who've responded to this project to "shut up"?.....
Tani: I told you that you should have logged that. They told YOU this, Stewart! Or, that's what you SAID. Did you forget?
Peter: .....Has any member of the administration told you to "drop this project"?.....
Tani: Schlessinger, Ventrue, and 2 others, forgot who. They even advised you to read Main Kampf by Hitler! - or so you ran into muse and told everyone.
Peter: .....(Whether any of us thinks that it is a project that has been executed with any skill is another matter, but we generally don't offer our opinions unless asked, as per one of our "Rules of the Earth.") And concerning the corporate entity, which is the Church of Satan, it IS thoroughly within our rights as administrators of the corporation to tell any members that, if they disagree with how we are running the organization, then they SHOULD "leave if they don't like it." We are also empowered to terminate their titles and membership at will. Membership in the Church of Satan does not grant you rights of usage of property which belongs to the corporation, nor does it give you anything beyond what the administration of the corporation chooses to give to you.]
Stewart: This doctrinal similarity with the avowed enemies of the Satanic movement in the past, is a large contributing factor to the feeling, on my part and on the part of many, that these so-called Nazi Revisionist Satanists have worn out their welcome. Some still pose the question of whether there is, indeed, a Fascist faction in the CoS.
Peter: [Again, you've presented no evidence whatsoever that there exists a faction of "Nazi Revisionist Satanists" in the Church of Satan, much less that such a mythical faction has any power in the organization.]
Stewart: What of stratification? Would that not be a definition of what is going on within the organization?
Peter: [Stratification is a term coined by Anton LaVey to signify how nature allows everything to "seek its own level." It is not something to be advocated - it happens of its own accord. In human social situations there are many strata - though here in the West for years this was (mistakenly) thought to be invalid because "democracy" supposedly dissolved the old formal class structures. In reality, classes founded on economic status were the new "strata," though some mobility is offered when individuals who were entrepreneurs garnered enough wealth to move out of their original stratum. In the past, there were still issues for these "upwardly mobile" individuals concerning their social status since families coming from "old money" were associated with "cultured aristocracy" while their "new money" was pegged as being part of "crass materialism" (and there was some evidence to support these stereotypes). And stratification is always happening in the organization, as such cannot be avoided.]
Stewart: It is an interesting question. I would ask the reader to keep the following point in mind as he/she ponders the question of stratification: the goal of Fascism is "sameness." In no way does "sameness" equate with stratification.
Peter: [The goal of fascism is to weld a group of people together towards a common goal - support of a state - which itself is an illusion created by the rulers of that state. The "sameness" is the common purpose, and such has always been the means for totalitarians whether they are called fascists, or clergy, or commissars. This has nothing ostensibly to do with stratification, which ideally is the recognition of natural differences depending upon merit, but can be seen practically in how well the clever "know the ropes" of the system in which they live. People rise and fall, or remain static in their society. Like seeks like. As Satanists, we embrace the principle that there are those who naturally are leaders, and those who are followers. There are masters and there are slaves, and quite a few shades in between. It is a delusion amongst many who embrace Satanism that by adopting this philosophy, they are immediately "masters," and are thus now equal to all of the other "masters." This is an error. Satanists know that those who embrace Satanism treat themselves as their own Gods - making the satisfaction of their individual selves the standard of value for their lives. However, only the naïve would think that amongst these self-acknowledged Satanists that everyone is automatically in some kind of "equivalent brotherhood" now that they are calling themselves "Satanists." Nothing could be further from reality. Embracing Satanism does not automatically give you advanced creative skills, a lifetime of hard-won experience, or wisdom garnered from studying the wealth of information now at our fingertips. You may be "your own god" but you don't have instant "godhood" in the realm of human endeavor - that is something only gained through the refined cultivation of whatever talents are yours by nature. Satanism can be a great "launching pad" for those who are realists, to see where they stand in their level of personal achievement, and to rationally decide how to advance themselves in whatever manner they choose (or not to advance themselves, but to enjoy whatever level they wish to have). Amongst Satanists, there are some who embrace the principles of this philosophy and do not feel that they have the capabilities to make their own horizons, as Nietzsche defined a characteristic of his superior humans. These honest individuals, under Satanism, have the choice to personally (and wisely) select their master, and thus to guarantee that they will get the guidance they desire which will be beneficial to themselves (unlike unwilling slaves, they are also free to switch masters should they so choose). Few are honest enough about themselves to make such a decision. We are thus confronted with a spectacle of "Satanists" who are all failing the "leaky inner tube test." They puff themselves up with claims of godhood, when they are, by any objective standards, really just a bunch of low-grade buffoons who can't produce anything on a level that could be deemed professional (as low as many standards for professionalism are these days). Would that they could honestly look into the mirror and see themselves for who they really are, and that those who aren't "leaders and innovators" should stop being pretenders to those thrones. They'd be happier and the fringes of Satanism would look less ridiculous. However, we do understand the "nature of the human beast" and thus will do our best to usher these pretentious fools out of the door of the Church of Satan.]
Stewart: The members of this Fascist faction would have us believe that by belonging to their faction they are demonstrating some kind of "personal power." In their eyes, the identification with a political doctrine and people that sought the elimination of a supposedly "weaker race" invests them with some feeling of superiority, and they take this to be Satanic.
Peter: [You have offered no evidence for such a faction in the Church of Satan using this methodology. This is, however, an accurate description of many white supremacists, and those folk are currently in short supply amongst our membership. I suggest that this must have something to do with Anton LaVey's personal Jewish roots, as well as the fact that we don't embrace racism since it is collectivist thinking and thus not compatible with the individualist basis for the philosophy of the Church of Satan.]
Stewart: Self-delusion is never a Satanic value,
Peter: [You got that one right!]
Stewart: and self-deluded they are.
Peter: [I'd venture to call this "projection."]
Stewart: Those who posses the "personal power" these would-be Fascists lust after, feel no need to adopt postures designed to showcase said power; only the posers feel the need to pose. This is easily proven by a simple survey of those who practiced political Fascism in the past; it has never been a political movement of the strong.
Peter: [Real Satanists have confidence and "personal power" as they determine the course of their lives, to whatever extent is possible in the society in which they live. There are times when masochists are attracted to Satanists, and these folk antagonize the Satanist in an attempt to goad them into exercising their real power (not a postured power). The Satanist, as LaVey explained, is an Epicurean Sadist, and when such masochists come-a-calling, the Satanist often says "No" to the symbolic requests for a "beating," thus turning the masochist's sought after eustress into distress. But the Satanist's option to say "yes" also exists, and he can then provide the masochist with the "beating" being requested, only if it gives the Satanist satisfaction. That some Satanists use fascist-related imagery to manipulate the herd has nothing to do with their own sense of efficacy. They don't need it to be bolstered via symbols of any sort. It is simply a matter of pushing buttons in the mass (or individual) consciousness for their own ends - as was described above concerning Boyd Rice and Brian Warner. We all know from history that the real fascist movements fell from power. BUT, only a fool would ignore the continued power of their iconography over the popular consciousness. Hence, you don't see any Satanists advocating neo-fascist political movements - which are currently the purview of those who feel they have no power over their lives and are looking for scapegoats to blame for this powerlessness. The neo-Nazis are generally powerless white folk, who want to try to do what Hitler did in the past. They are clinging to a sunken ship. Real fascists today use Jesus and Christian moral righteousness to make their way to power, blaming those who oppose their morality for the distress their members feel. Their scapegoats are chosen using their own morality and faith as the criteria. Satanists, for the most part, clearly oppose Christian concepts of morality and would also oppose the success of such movements (unless, perhaps, they have the concession for selling Christian tchotchkes!).]
Stewart: An interesting aside is that these people are idolizing a system of thought and practice that would see them as its first victims. No genuine political Fascist would "suffer a Satanist to live."
Peter: [This is correct, in as much as I've said above, that the only forces poised to effectively create a fascist state in the current Western world are those motivated by the right-wing Christian coalition. They'd love a theocracy, but not one dominated by the Vatican as was the last such political state. As said above, some "politically idealist" Satanists might advocate a very different kind of fascism, wherein the goals of the state are defined by Satanists, and the herd follows them (though this is really quite a "pie-in-the-sky" form of idealism which I find incompatible with the essential pragmatism of Satanism). And to reiterate what I said above, if some Satanists want to satisfy themselves with such dreams, they may, so long as they don't identify them with the aims of the Church of Satan, which are emphatically not political, nor are they idealistic.]
Stewart: The political and real ideal of Satanism was set forth over 200 years ago and is rooted in the concept of Freedom. Specific examples of those Freedoms were built into the Constitution of the United States: freedom of speech, religion, the press, and assembly and petition.
Peter: [We Satanists tend to define the United States as the world's first "Satanic Republic."
Tani: It's detailed in ROOTS TWO.
Peter: But you should note that the "founding fathers" did not originally grant freedom to everyone - it was thought to be a "right" only for those whom they deemed worthy and capable of intelligent ability to exercise such freedoms - which originally excluded people such as slaves and women. Thus, they weren't giving everyone equality, but were advocating freedom for people whom they defined as equals in ability and capability, an important distinction that has been lost on many who want to interpret their wisely constructed governmental structure as being "egalitarian."]
Stewart: Are we to accept any less from an organization, specifically a Satanic one that supposedly holds the Self sacred, than we demand from our government? I think not!
Peter: [The Church of Satan is not a political state, but a corporation, and does not pretend to operate as does the United States government. In practice, we who administer the organization do as Anton LaVey mandated - we seek out the assistance of individuals of superior ability to assist in our goal, which is the dissemination of the philosophy synthesized by Anton LaVey. This corporation is NOT an autonomous collective, nor is it a republic or a democracy, and the members have no final say in how it is run. The members may state their opinions (and should do so, according to one of our "Rules of the Earth," only when we solicit them). But we who run this show are under no obligation to act in any way other than as we see fit. During his life, Anton LaVey was the bottom line for decisions concerning how the Church of Satan was run. As a member of his Council of Nine for many years, he often sought my view on matters of import, but he always made his own final decisions and took the responsibility for them. He picked some of us to carry on this responsibility, and to do so with the same authority which he wielded. We do not claim to be doing otherwise, and if people have joined us under the illusion that they will share in the running of this corporation simply by paying $100, then they have deluded themselves and are invited to tender their resignations immediately.]
Stewart: Two hundred years ago, a group of people dedicated to "Nature's god" looked at the tyranny that they were forced to live with and decided that such tyranny was no longer to be tolerated or accepted. They pledged themselves, at the cost of "their lives, fortunes and sacred honor," to freedom from the tyranny of the "Christian King of Great Britain." The government they formed in the midst of Revolution was built on principles Satanists claim as their own: Liberty, Equity and Unity. Liberty: Do as Thou Wilt. Equity: all have an equal right to Liberty. Unity: those who practice the principles of Liberty and Equity come together to preserve them, wherever and whenever they are threatened.
Peter: [Dealt with above - they deemed a select group capable of exercising these freedoms.]
Stewart: Again, the reader who is paying attention will note that nowhere in that Satanic ideal will you find anything of the Fascist ideal. Indeed, the two are anathema to each other. [Depending upon how one defines each of these ideals - which you treat as absolutes, but which are not.]
Stewart: On an ironic note, it is that very freedom and liberalism that the Fascist faction finds so abhorrent, that allows the Satanic organization that they infect to exist! "All religions are equal under the law. The State should not interfere." Liberals say this.
Peter: [If one is not a member of the "ruling class," but is actually part of a minority faction in a pluralistic society, then advocating that "everyone be treated equally under the law" may guarantee that you will have a maximum amount of personal freedom (if there arenıt other "power factors" at work - like wealth). Of course the amount of freedom depends upon the laws of the society in which one lives and we recognize that special interest groups often jostle to get more of the "pie" via handouts and privileges established via state mechanisms) As an aside, Satanists know that there are no "natural rights" as the concept of rights requires someone or something to be doling them out, and in the past this is usually considered to be some God. The only "rights" one has are those given by the laws of the governmental structure under which you live, and ultimately, even these devolve into what you may attain for yourself using whatever personal power you might have. That is why the rich get away with so much more, as their wealth gives them power and hence, "more rights" in a society ruled by lawyers and not justice. However, if you belonged to the "ruling class" you might have a very different perspective. It is true that self-identified Satanists are currently as I described above, a minority in a pluralistic society. But what if they achieved a position of being the "ruling class"? How would clever self-declared Satanists run a government? What would they advocate? How would they control the masses? This could be a fine question which could be dealt with in a novel of speculative fiction, as it is not likely to happen in reality. But, we do know that the people who really understand how to exercise power on the highest of human levels, regardless of whatever philosophy they spew as their cover, are actually maintaining their power by behaving in accordance with the true nature of the human species, and are thus de facto Satanists.]
Stewart: It can be seen that the ideals of the Fascist have nothing in common with the ideals of the Satanist, yet here we have a Fascist faction infecting a Satanic organization.
Peter: [No, it is certainly not true that we have a "Fascist faction infecting" our Church of Satan. You assert this as fact without offering any concrete evidence.]
Tani: You should have logged it. I told you that your "word" would never be good enough. And if you tend to forget what you wrote - and/or what you saw Casey and Chaos fix the GRAMMAR on and then ok'd after having had it read to you THREE TIMES, some of it whole page, some of it paragraph by paragraph, then what good is your word? Someone has the unedited original: and it was MUCH STRONGER than this toned down version with grammar only SLIGHTLY fixed. (I HAVE IT).
Stewart: What is to be done? The members must either take back the organization, or they must accept the fact that their organization has been usurped and conform to the new ideology for conform these Fascists surely try to make you do! Or they separate themselves and form a new faction. Or they walk away from the public movement all together. The question I put to the reader is this: which action is the correct action?
Tani: This was the part that was so strong. You wrote this BEFORE you even got emails from anyone. You also had "The Beast" in there. It was unreadable. But you clearly told everyone what you INTENDED TO SAY in that post - you POSTED it on alt.Satanism.
Peter: [It is not the business of the administrators to attempt to argue you and many of your respondents to this project out of their misprision regarding this false contention that there is a faction of fascists which has usurped the Church of Satan. You are wrong. Perhaps now you might be seeing that youıve made an error in your assertions. But, if your self-proclaimed "anti-fascism clique" (the only "faction" which we administrators see).....
Tani: AH, Because they are very vocal and out in the open with it. Meanwhile the threats, the rest of it, is not so out in the open.
Peter: .....feels strongly enough in their belief of this fiction, then we invite all of you to send in your resignations immediately (please use the San Diego PO Box so that we can close your files with utmost efficiency). You are advocating that members of the Church of Satan "take back" a corporation which does not belong to them.
Tani: You didn't want to take that sentence out. I called you on the phone, I READ IT 3 times to you. "Do you really want to say THAT?" You said YES!
Peter: That sort of "coup" is not possible, and those who advocate such will not be tolerated as members by this administration. You are hereby advised to immediately follow your own advice: separate yourselves and form a "new faction." Your "one true way" attempt to force the entire membership of the Church of Satan to conform to your opinions is not welcome. It is ironic that throughout history this has always been the cry of those who want to establish their own tyranny - the claim to advocate "liberation," which actually paves the way towards establishing a hegemony which favors their own special interests. Remember Robespierre? Probably not, else some perspective would have crept into this "project." So, if any of you has the "courage of your convictions" we should expect to see your departure, as you cannot change our methods, which we continue to use exactly as Anton LaVey mandated we should.
Tani: Ah, here he assumes that any of the respondents gives a shit about it to begin with. I can easily speak for them all - they ONLY care when SOMEONE FUCKS WITH THEM. Same with me. Remember, you wrote that at the same time you wrote the intro and "The Beast." THEN you got threatened on satannet for talking about JUST the intro. I TOLD YOU to keep the logs! You insisted your word would be good enough. Now you see it's not. Are P and P assuming we all READ this conclusion prior to writing our emails? I read the orig after it was all formatted. I gave it to Casey and Chaos to have a try at the grammar. They did. I read it back to you THREE TIMES. And you most definitely insisted on leaving that hard ass paragraph in at the end.
Peter: Additionally, I found it amusing that this whole "project" is spent railing against the "evils" of fascism. When viewed in a broader perspective, it simply smacks of jumping on the "politically correct" bandwagon - "We may be Satanists, but we aren't fascists - heavens no!"
Tani: That is not what provoked you [TIM!] to write this at all - and you should have TOLD them this. But this IS what everyone else thought it was about! ME TOO, as you can see from my first response. Phil too, see by his response. Everyone thought that, just about.
Peter: Such is the usual course of action for those who can't bear to be without a "goodguy badge." And, as Dr. LaVey pointed out, all wearers of goodguy badges need an audience - hence the "project" satisfies this dictum.
Tani: Oh, I think the stuff YOU [TIM!] wrote is confrontational as hell. Seeing this, I made mine more confrontational. :) I spoke what I felt. Simple as that.
Stewart: [Tani says PETER wrote this to TIM!]
Your concluding paragraph above has the tenor, if not the literary skills, of missives I recall reading which date from 1975. They were written by a self-righteous Michael Aquino who had convinced himself that the Church of Satan had sold-out on its principles. LaVey pointed out to him that he really didn't understand those principles in the first place and really didnıt understand how the organization as a whole was being run. I am now saying the same to you and those who share your delusion. In some of the forwarded email exchanges from the " Tani-clique" preceding this "project," I noted a railing against the concept of hierarchy in the Church of Satan - redefining it into something non-natural and then shooting it down (the same tactic as is used in this "fascism project").
Tani: Correction: railing against being fucked with, threatened, and the whole rest of the STUPID SHIT that they know about did this. I handed the shit over to the POLICE. Done with it. And now I see Peter has resorted to that old -ISMS bs. "Tani clique." The only thing we share in common (there are a LOT of them that I don't even know) is being FUCKED WITH by assholes. FUCKED WITH - for what? TRYING TO DO OUR OWN THINGS - all of them that got fucked with TRYING TO DO THEIR OWN THING.
Peter: The Church of Satan has a natural hierarchy, wherein titles are granted by its administration on the basis of merit. But these titles aren't "frozen." If someone screws up and lets us down, their title, and even their membership, may be revoked. There are currently members who have titles, including Magisters and Magistras, whom the Council has decided have been a disgrace to these titles, abusing these tokens of esteem and using them to browbeat other members, or as convincers for specious contentions. While we are patient and generally trust that our original estimation of these people may again prove to be their norm, if such does not happen speedily, then we will not hesitate to bring to an end these membersı affiliation with the Church of Satan.
Tani: Jeff Nagy did this as Liz Dictator - and logs of what he INTENDED to do exist also. P and P have them. I'd call John Davis' insane actions after his honeymoon DISGRACEFUL. Let's see, Schlessinger surely did similar things regarding Ygraine and her husband (which she wrote to Blanche about) and to Kasner, some writer or artist. He continues to do it to many others. That was not disgraceful? Yelling out the window "I'm a Priest and don't forget it" or whatever?
Peter: And if anyone doubts that what we are doing is not as LaVey planned, we can offer evidence concerning protocols for this Church from its very earliest of days which I must admit we've actually been fairly lax in maintaining amongst the rabble of our membership online. Recall that LaVey specified in "The Cloven Hoof" that one of the ways for getting ahead in the Church of Satan was termed "pleasing the boss." As Iıve seen in some email exchanges from this clique, that last word seems to have bothered some of you. I would posit that there were some less-than-positive employment situations in the past for those who feel this way. LaVey did see himself as the head of his Church, though this does not mean that this position meant anything more or less than it could in a group whose members join and leave voluntarily. He expected his members and appointed representatives to instinctually know the boundaries between "Church business," and the personal "life matters" that always remained up to each individual. Those who fail to be able to make this distinction will be called to task. In matters of their own lives, Church of Satan members have complete sovereignty - they are their own bosses (to paraphrase a current pop tune lyric, "We ain't the boss of thee"). Members of the Church of Satan have always been expected to treat each other as "ladies and gentlemen."
Tani: They never treated me that way at all, and some of the shit they pulled on Vad and others was not "ladies and gentlemenly" AT ALL. They declared WAR and threw MANY stones before anyone retaliated.
Peter: Additionally, those who work at administering the organization ARE part of a corporate hierarchy, and they are expected to act accordingly. That includes people who are granted the privilege of representing the Church of Satan - it comes with specific responsibilities, and if these are not willingly accepted, then the privilege may honorably be refused. Once accepted, if these responsibilities are abused, then the position is revoked. Over the course of the history of our Church, there have often been times when people had to lay down their titles as they could not continue to honor the responsibilities which came with them. Did one of our "founding fathers," General George Washington, confer with all of his soldiers before he made tactical decisions? No. He consulted with his hand-picked trusted advisors, then made his choice based on his own evaluations of the facts and the opinions he received by request. And he expected adherence to his decisions about this situation in which all were voluntarily involved. That is the natural way an organized meritocratic group (which seeks to attain a common goal) works. It is not anarchic, and the leader (boss) does not waste time soliciting the thoughts of all involved - only the ideas of those who count in his estimation. That is how LaVey ran the Church of Satan, and that is how we continue to run the Church of Satan. If any of you are peeved because you haven't earned a place amongst those whose opinions count, you only have yourselves to blame.
Tani: ? "Any of you?" Who is he writing this to? YOU? And who else?
Peter: For the edification of those who are "anti-hierarchy," we include an excerpt from "The Cloven Hoof" which delineated precisely how it was expected that Church of Satan members should deal with each other. LaVey promoted this ideal, and we are certain that he would be ashamed if he could witness the sorry spectacle we've had the misfortune of viewing as it takes place in chat rooms and on Usenet.
Tani: Yeah, I know about that. Let's see. CO9 advises Vad to make a chat room and make his own rules and op me. He does this. Ventrue and sleepdirt commence to try to spy in the room, concerning themselves with what they need not concern themselves with. Jacqueline commences to tear into the place and wage war with people on there - when NO OPS ARE IN THE ROOM - bitching about Vad's rules: oh dear, they are different from Ventrue's rules. Uh hum. That's only one example. Let's see: it's ok for Ygraine to email 2 threats. (Police have them now). Let us NOT forget that Sir Chaos was witness to a LOT of nasty shit. He made his appeal. I couldn't DO anything - so I told P and P. THEREBY commenced the "getting of proof" which Peggy asked for! AND? This is bossing people? This is what, doing what he insinuates I'm doing? Lol. FUCK NO it's not. I'd not have ever GONE ON CHAT if not for Sir Chaos's appeals - glad I'm on - it's fun. I like to have fun on there, not "get proof" of MORE SHIT - like the Jill Panther garbage. Of course, what did I uncover there? I uncovered a DEN of sniping hens, obstructers, destroyers, TOTAL shit-disturbers. They have it all. So be it. IDGAF. They can't stop fucking with ME. I do not fuck with them AT ALL. There you have it. EVERYONE SEES IT TOO. EVERYONE. Now I WILL fuck with them one simple way: expose their own shit. Plaster it all over the damned place.
Magister Peter H. Gilmore For High Priestess Barton and the rest of the Council of Nine
THIS FOLLOWING has to be read to be believed. It is a glorification of total serfdom.
From "The Cloven Hoof," Issue June V Anno Satanas (1970 CE).
Basic Rules of Protocol
I. Orders: Each member in attendance at a grotto of the Church shall render due respect and deference, in both word and action, to his superiors in the Church, as well as to members of higher orders than that to which he belongs. He shall also demonstrate regard for all members of the Church as befits their status as servants of the Infernal Lord and subjects of the Infernal Empire. It shall be incumbent upon members attending rituals to wear the amulet of their respective Order, unless a serious reason prevents them from doing so.
II. Titles: Officials of the Church are to be addressed by their respective titles except when to do so would be awkward or reveal identities and positions to those who should not be so informed, such as non-members. This is to be determined by the circumstances, but great effort should be made to demonstrate respect and loyalty. The ordinary forms of address to be used are as follows: The High Priest: "Your Excellency," or "My Lord, High Priest" in the context of rituals. These may also be used in ordinary address, but "Doctor" and "Magus" may be used as well. The High Priestess: "High Priestess, Priestess," or "Lady Diane." The Magister of the Grotto: "Magister" or "Reverend." The Clergy: "Reverend," or in the case of Priestesses, "Priestess." Other officials are to be addressed by their last name, prefixed with "Mr., Mrs.," or "Miss," unless the member has a first-name relationship with them.
III. Gestures of Respect: Members should ordinarily stand when the High Priest enters the room, and if a handshake is to be extended, it is the High Priestıs prerogative to make the gesture, NOT the memberıs to assume. When receiving Infernal benedictions from the High Priest, it is usual to kneel, but to stand when receiving such from other members of the clergy.
IV. Difficulties or Complaints: Difficulties or complaints should first be discussed with the member in charge. General problems should be taken up with the Taskmaster of the Grotto, who will, if necessary, refer them to the Priestess of the Grotto or the Magister. Only in extreme cases should it be necessary to bring these to the attention of the High Priestess or the High Priest, and then only through the proper channels.
V. General Attitude toward Regulations and Protocol: It should be apparent that all regulations and forms of protocol are designed to increase the dignity and status of the Church, and are, therefore, to the benefit of even the least important member. Satanists are ready to pay deference to their superiors, and expect, in consequence, respect from their inferiors. This is the order of nature, and we as magicians must regulate our lives in accordance with that order. If you do not understand why an individual has been placed in a certain position, it behooves you to have confidence in the decisions and knowledge possessed by those in authority who make such appointments, and to act accordingly.