Now that the dark doctrines crew has been either expelled or asked to resign, the CoS is quick to apply revisionism to the proof that we provide. This is one example.
Subject: Re: Jesus of Borg and his magic coatail From: SVsite <email@example.com> Date: 2000/11/09 Newsgroups: alt.satanism
Tani said: Woah, Kevin. Let me set a record straight here before "revision" takes over your mind. Something, if your memory serves you right, you will realize you KNOW. We have been around since the 1970's, and before I was involved, way way before that - not with the Roots Western stuff - but the LHP Dark Doctrine - and it is a real tradition - you can even learn it in a university today - Kaiden took a class in it - it just confirmed what I put to paper. At the time I wrote that, however, it was UNKNOWN STUFF. Now, heh, if you recall, me and a gang of us - NONE COS MEMBERS, got on here and severed the TOS from the COS for good. WE did that. The really bad flames, all sent on discs and posted by somone, were written by many people, mostly NOT ME. I got the "credit" however - for some odd reason. Anyway...... None of us involved outside the cos ever joined OR WOULD join the cos. We made it perfectly clear what we thought about Anton's writings, heh and his cos. Brutally blunt about it. No mistake there, brutally blunt and we said nothing then that we have not said ALL OVER AGAIN, right here online. OK? Now, since I mailed a lot of that to Doc and HE didn't mind, heh - well, figure it out. HE incorporated OUR STUFF into the cos by titling Phil and I with Magistrate Degrees and gave Vad a title right after he PUT that very same stuff on a Website! OK? Did we ever USE these titles on serious things we published and wrote? NO. However many people forked over a c note because they saw the Dark Doctrines, RESEARCHED FURTHER INTO IT (just as you researched into Santeria) and thought "wow, that's the cos." Well, no wow - that's NOT the cos and I personally resent our knowledge being USED to sucker c notes from people who subsequently get shit on all over by know nothings with NO serious lhp tradition or even lhp creative NEW stuff in mind. OK? That's simple enough. We defended ONE THING Doc said about a dark force in nature. That is ALL we did. This is an entirely different situation here, "all of us compared to the TOS" - and the situations can't even BE compared. There is NO point of comparison here! Michael Aquino was IN the cos, he worked FOR the cos, he believed IN Anton LaVey and the cos. NONE OF US EVER DID, AND NEVER WOULD. When asked with about 10 whining emails prefaced with "how much Doktor loved me," to "go after Egan for TAKING the Dark Doctrines" I REFUSED. Therein set the ICE, Kevin. OK? Now - that is the TRUTH! As for Yachud (the poster, Jeff Gerber's friend, btw), heh, Marx and Lenin? They are not gods, nor do their words determine what he or any one else says, think, or DO "when in Rome," unless the person is a "personality cult fetishist." I know Yachud: he is most definitely NOT that. He doesn't live in that kind of paradigm or relate to it. For such people that he's flaming to prattle on about how royal they are is pathetic. It's a joke. There is no such thing as "class" in the USA. You can go from Borgie to Welfare in one year. Low Class to Corporate Nobel in one year or vice versa. As a matter of fact, however, I had the - privelege? - of knowing some REAL Barons and Counts in the USA - the Reds chased them out. Phew. Compared to them my eating manners with Fried Chicken are polite. They are me at my worst time 10. Yeah, we got along :) They didn't put on those "airs" that I despise so much in the wannabe royalty types. None of that at all. They were are down to earth and blunt as me. We got along. See inside and yeah, I'm butting my face into someone else's post.
In article <4WoO5.firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:
In article <firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com says...
Yehudi said: Funny. CoSers LOVE to kvetch about "ridng the coatail of others" Yet, my Jesus of Borg himself is a redneck biker white trash freak who married an ex tripper who happened to inherit some money. What is that, but riding the coatails of others? Practise what you preach, Big Willy, and earn your own money. Oh well. I guess gas jockey is the best ya go do.
Filan said: I'm curious as to why you have issues with the Gidneys.
Tani said: Are you really curious? If I were Yachud, I'd charge $5.00 for each specific question requiring a one sentence answer. LOTS of people have issues with the Gidneys - I found that out big time when I was investigating bs for Peggy. People that the Gidney's thought were friends (cause they were polite) hated their guts instead. And the Gidneys have BIG issues with Andre. One big happy family-NOT. I don't know why. I just collected the data - I didn't bother to ASK - see, I wasn't interested! (Maybe I should have at least READ the stuff before forwarding it.....oh well).
Filan said: Seriously: Ygraine, Will and I started out on opposite sides of a rather nasty flamewar before we ultimately reconciled our differences.
Tani said: Ho Lol. You trashed Ygraine 10 times worse than you EVER trashed Nancy. I remember that. You out did Brendan the Flame Queen in his flames to Lupo and Scratch - you even out did Casey the Mouth from HELL! You da MAN! And yeah, I TRIED to outdo you "Hey YO Bitch..." that one. Back then. My email to Jill started that way....I THOUGHT that the Panthers WERE Ygraine and Willy! REALLY! I was also not online yet. I asked "is that the couple with the store? They sell shirts or something?" And I was told yes. And so......
Filan said: So I'm not saying that I can't understand someone disagreeing with them. But I'm wondering what happened to make you so adamantly anti-Gidney? And I'm also curious, again, as to why "Comrade Yehudi" would use a bourgeois insult like "redneck biker white trash" ... Marx and Engels are rolling in their graves, methinks.
Tani said: Lemme tell ya what Jason Yuschenko knows about us HARD Left leaning pro labor types: shsh, it's a secret! 1. we ain't liberals, hell no. 2. we work as a collective and cooperate within a FANATICAL framework of US and THEM. Failure to cooperate results in TOTAL disownership, you become personna non grata COMPLETELY; even if you are FAMILY. It's very bad! Such outcasts DIE PAUPERS! 3. we know how to get rich in a capitalist dog eat dog society, sometimes using a pyramidal structure. 4. we get into "the right places" and commence to preach and foster "individualistic" ideas amongst those in the "THEM" group to keep them at each others throats while we get ahead. In case you didn't know it, Lenin was a millionaire that rode around in a Rolls Royce. His backers were BILLIONAIRS! OK? What we clearly see is that if the idiot individualists were ever to "do as we do" and collectivise, the whole fucking place would turn to HELL - like a 3rd world country where everything is done via bribes. Like gang warfare. And so.......we see that Left leaning programs such as we as an org advocate - which Roosevelt favored, are good for EVERYONE, hence also good for the Self. High paying jobs means well off people, people that can afford fun and leisure, HAPPY people, and so forth, figure it out. HAPPY people seldom turn to religion except in the most casual manner. Thing were very good in the 50's 60's here. THEN they turned to shit as programs were eroded and the workers were stuck between corporate WELFARE BUMS and "low class" welfare BUMS. The quality of life, for the most part, is quite low. And so we think ahead using foresight. Do you think that Communism would have benefited Lenin or ANY of his backers? Like Armin Hammer? Hey, come on! But they advocated it for a better world TO COME. :) And there really is no set way to achieve it. Marx was an expert in CAPITALISM. Everything he ever said about it was on the mark and prophetic! But he was NOT an expert in Communism. He never, eg, imagined that 90% peasant based huge countries would go Communist; but that's what happened. And Lenin never imagined he'd have to practice capitalism (NEP). They played it the way it happened: it was never DONE before, you see. It was truly an experiment. Khrushchev put an end to it, btw - by reinstating state capitalism.
Filan said: As to "riding the coattails of others:" I would honestly have no problem with Tani & Co. setting up their own "Order of the Dark Doctrines."
Tani said: Um, "Tani and Company" already HAD something going before Doc gave Magistrate titles away. That's the highest title you can have except for HP. Why such a HIGH title? But we already HAD something going: it's called the Lodge, Kevin :) And that's where I learned all of what's in Roots 1, 2, Set, Real Wicca and other things western. OK? It was "Company" that asked "Tani and" to GIVE THIS TO GILMORE for the COS. This is widely known. There is no way in hell you can say that we ride (the HILARITY of it) the coatails of LaVey. The mere idea is HILARIOUS. What LaVey? 9 statements? I will give him the CREDIT of honestly coming up with the name SATAN to define human decency that WE ALREADY DO practice *amongst ourselves* (refer to US and THEM above) - and of openly equating that with the dark force in nature. I give him credit for NOTHING ELSE. I have always thought, openly so, that anyone that thinks his other stuff is "profound" is a culturally illiterate moron. NO LODGE takes the man seriously, NO THEOLOGICAL INSTITUTE takes the man seriously. He is a JOKER and had no problem being CALLED The Joker or Maestro. I'll give Anton LaVey credit for THAT - ONLY THAT! And that's not a small thing since it took balls to go SATAN SATAN all over the place - of course, doors were open for him then. THEN.
Filan said: At this point their philosophy owes precious little to Anton LaVey's *Satanic Bible,* much as Aquino's Setianism bears more resemblance to Arthur C. Clarke than to Anton LaVey. That's not an insult, just a simple statement of fact: most objective observers would see little in common between LaVey's ideas and most of Tani's ideas.
Tani said: Don't mix up "my personal ideas" or "things I wrote to piss people off" with the Dark Doctrines - they are not the same things. What I wrote about "COS versus TOS" is accurate - do you disagree? Doc agreed - he saw it before I ever gave it to anyone to post. I mailed it to him. I'd never speak or do an exegesis for COS without showing him first. I don't care WHAT revision you heard, but that never saw a newsgroup until Doc saw it and liked it. Unfortunately, I'm not anal retentive and may not have saved ALL THAT correspondence! Point is, I'd NEVER deam to speak "for you," eg, "kevin's ideas on Santeria," without ASKING you if I stated it right: I'd show you first. The stuff on "Neter" is from books, real ones, real history and from things Gilmore gave me that he got from TOS directly. The Dark Doctrine is actually very short and precise - and can be pictorally shown in 2 pages. Most observers UNFORTUNATELY saw Vad's website and thought that WAS the cos's stance. THAT is the problem. And why did they think this when before, no one would think it? Because of those damned VERY HIGH titles! THAT is why. Simple? Very simple. There is a lot to read on Vad's website, Kevin - and most of these people didn't stop there, they went and got books referred to on there and read - and that's a LOT OF STUFF. Compare all those university textbooks, science books, psychology and neurology books - compare that to, um, Doc's writings. NO CONTEST! But, here is the clincher, read all that first, and THEN read Doc's SB - then due to intertextualization, the SB takes on a much heavier meaning and MOST DEFINITELY DOES agree with what is now being called "Dark Doctrine" - a phrase NOW defining "Vad's web stuff PLUS ALL THOSE BOOKS REFERENCES!" Get it? The people who have not read "ALL that stuff" - but ONLY read Doc's stuff - well, they are ignorant, arrogant, and just plain inversionist: wailing wannabes. OK? I will agree that Ygraine's IQ is probably Barton's IQ squared. Barton is an idiot; Phil trashed her idiocy - THEN Doc made him a Magister. WHY? But I agree with the Yachud and MANY others (that she thinks are her friends still) that Ygraine is pretentious in the extreme. She respects people who have walked all over her (I posted it, her own words). Some people hate that. Yachud hates it. Ergo...? But I'm speaking for him. I have no idea if that's why he "doesn't like" her. But, why do you care? Are you her paid agent?
Filan said: Once the Setians quit pretending to be the "Real and Improved Church of Satan" and started doing their own thing, it was better for all concerned. I suspect the same will hold true for Tani & Co.
Tani said:No, more like once the COS is shown to have nothing to do with any of this stuff that so many intelligent and LHP people think it has to do with, it will be MUCH better for us. And "US" is not Tani and Co. I resent you making ME into someone else's "cult of personality" as if you can't seem to think "outside" that paradigm. It's not about ME, Kevin and it never was. May as well call it Damasio's fans. Or Padme Sambhava's Cult. It's quite simply the science and the LHP gang. OK? If I quote YOU and people love it, does that make it MY THING? I'm quoting YOUR WORDS. This is what we all detest and I detest it the most. I KNOW what kinds of people think that way. And I despise them. Always have.
Filan said: What the CoS *does* object to, and rightly so, IMHO, is someone presenting CoS ideas as their own, or trying to use our name and ideas to legitimize their own claims. Some examples of that would be:
Tani said: Neither I nor any of us from the lodges EVER did that. We don't recognize that the COS has any ideas, Kevin, and WE NEVER DID. 9 statements. That's it. This is NO secret - how can this POSSIBLY be a secret? For years we have maintained this position! Because we separated the TOS from the CoS by what seemed like a "defense" of Anton, (seemed like!) doesn't mean the REST of what you are inferring! But it was they who asked me to give stuff to Gilmore about western roots - and um, prior to that, after what Aquino did, the "world" for the most part thought the COS no longer existed. OK? Think about it. And don't fall for revisionism from the Council of Two.
Filan said: * Egan registering "Churchofsatan.org" and claiming the "First Church of Satan" is the "REAL Church of Satan." Egan had been working for years with the "Ancient Brotherhood of Satan" and "Brimstone magazine." Why didn't he register "Brimstonebrotherhood.com" or "ABoS.com?" Simple: it's because he knew that he would get more hits for his website if he pretended to be the Church of Satan.
Tani said:We AGREE and have told Egan this - that he should NOT connect his organization - ESPECIALLY if he's using any of Vad's stuff (and he IS, tho he may have looked it up and gotten it from university sources, he ADMITTED he learned it from me), ... should not confuse this with the COS. We do NOT want people to think "OOO, COS, ANTON" when they see the words "Dark Force in Nature" EVEN IF ANTON SAID THAT. EVEN THO I GIVE HIM FULL CREDIT for saying it! Yeah, I DO give him credit for saying that and CALLING IT "Satan." I give him credit at the end of every post I make. It's one of the ONLY things the man said that I respect and value (and it's PERSONAL - stuff that heh, Gilmore knows NOTHING about because I never told him. It's a soft spot I have had for Anton since the early 1970's.) Now, how can you not know this, when this was well known to so many offline people? If Gilmore claims to not have known that was the ONLY thing I respected: he's lying!
Filan said: *Egan taking the Active Membership Application, editing it very slightly, and presenting it as his "Priesthood Application." (Notice a trend here...?)
Tani said: Egan has openly stated that he did this due to "Peter Gilmore and his storm troopers," to hound them. He told ME this too. People that know Egan (Les Masters, eg) know this. Well, Peter Gilmore's "storm trooper" email got outed on here after all; everyone has seen it otherwise. Still, that's NOT a good reason to start an org and end up getting sincere LHP people who join, who only later find out it's the "Get Peter Gilmore Org" and NOT LHP at all except for some printed articles.
Filan said: *Various other groups presenting their version of Satanism, said version consisting of "Read Nietzsche, Rand, and London; quote the Nine Satanic Statements and the Eleven Rules of the Earth; talk about how Satan is a symbol, not an actual being; etc." All of these concepts are part of LaVey's conception of Satanism.
Tani said: We (the current "we," not the lodge "we") don't think that's a good idea either. Rand, Nietzsche and whoever have NOTHING TO DO with Satanism which was historically LW, not just LHP in a very Pythagorean sense of LHP! I'd condemn our own Roots 2 at this point in time because it's taken the wrong way by the wrong people. MOST orgs agree that viewing Satan as an actual being is Christian inversionism - but they do NOT get that from Anton. They get that from Eastern stuff and from our stuff. They are quite hip to inversionist christians and DO NOT LIKE THEM! I make all that very clear in "Which Kinds of Satanists." Our take on "Might is Right" is on our website - and it is rightly analyzed. I advise people to trash the 11 rules shmules and whatever other crap and GET THEIR OWN STUFF up there. And the orgs are listening. :)
Filan said: I've said for years that I would welcome a group which came up with a non-LaVeyan version of Satanism. The ONA was definitely promising, although I think their forays into "White Power" politics were kinda silly.
Tani said: The ONA is one person - I believe Elizabeth Selwyn explained all that. Her essay is on our website in "Is Fascism Satanic," and was also published once in the young Black Flame. ONA 'translations' of Greek are pure bullshit, too. Like Anton's translations of "Enochian..."
Filan said: But most "Satanism" out there is just rehashed LaVeyanism, with most of the words changed for the worse and misspelled to boot.
Tani said: Not any more. MOST orgs out there are definitely not versions of LaVeyanism, even if they HONOR LaVey and are militantly in favor of the man (but NOT in favor of the COS). MOST versions of Satanism are politically on the side of the Wiccans and Pagans. And politics, my friend, IS real life. Now, Barton's essay against Wiccans, suggesting sick and twisted S&M rituals to "cure" them, needs to be shown widely to ANY ORGS that have a problem straightening out this "political agenda" with Wiccans and Pagans. Also Barton needs to publicly RETRACT her statement that the COS gets its tradition from Pythagoreans and Masons. It most certainly does not: NOT ANY MORE! Now, YOU TELL ME where people GOT that idea, eh? From Barton? From Anton? YEAH? Not from me who was, prior to the Magistra title which was an open contradiction to all those who knew me, OPENLY HOSTILE to the Cos and all the utter fakery and fraud involved from its inception. I'm not Michael Aquino: I NEVER WAS A DUPE.
Filan said: Peace
Tani said: Indeed!
Filan signs: Kevin Filan
Tani signs: TJ